Different German Oil Strategy

[Peter89]

Not to mention that the price of the Manhattan project was 2bn USD, less than third the USA spent on tanks.

[Stugbit]

China and France also have nuclear weapons, without the intervention of Fuchs ,and they were not more intelligent than the Soviets .

France is allied with the USA. During the start of the Vietnam War, the US even offered two nuclear bombs to France, but the French did not accepted it.
And China, despite having it`s problems with SU in the past, still has a pragmatic alliance with them, like India nowadays is building modern missiles like BrahMos together with Russia. The same for North Korea, by the way. Don`t you believe that China have something to do with the Kim Jong Un bomb?


A bit off topic, but how do I spell your name, Ljawd? I thought your name was writing with an "i" instead of a "L" in the beginning.

[ljadw]

I totally agree with you, Peter89.

I think one of the most important figures of the Manhattan Project was a guy that was brought to the US in the bomb compartment of a Mosquito Aircraft. But I don`t know if the guy was actually Jewish.

His name was Niels Bohr, a famous Nobel laureat, the father of the so-called Bohr model. He was to be persecuted by the Nazis partially because of her Jewish mother, and also because he became alerted about the Nazi A-bomb program at a meeting with Heisenberg. He fled to Sweden first, and then became evacuated in a Mosquito in 1943. His intelligence report greatly contributed to the Allied commando missions in Norway.

The SU was able to build the A and the H bombs without the aid of German emigrés, thus the US also could do it .

As long as I`m concerned, the main reason for the URSS development of nuclear bombs was a traitor that brought them information on the matter. He wanted to give balance to the world order fearing the control and hegemony of just one country. Without this guy, I think it would take much longer for them to have nuclear weapons.

His name was Klaus Fuchs, and you are right about this matter.


Ljadw is wrong about his imperative approach. "It was common knowledge, so given the necessary resources, everyone could do it."

In theory, everyone knows how to build a fusion reactor nowadays. Somehow, we spend millions to make it work. And we still can't make it work. (If an undercover agent from the deep Amazonas tribes could provide us a wee bit of an assistance, we could save years for Mother Earth with a clean and cheap energy.)

The guys who could make it work was: Enrico Fermi (Italian, Jewish wife) and Leo Szilard (Hungarian, Jew himself).

The guy who created the H-bomb was Ede Teller, also a Hungarian Jew. I had a chance to meet him many years ago.

All their families were executed, deported and closed into ghettos. Yeah, these crimes against humanity played no role in history...

Without the $ billions the US invested in the Manhattan Project and the thousands of US technicians, there would be no nuclear bomb .
Bohr said :they didn't need my help in making the atom bomb .
About Fuchs : while he spied for the SU, there is no proof that without his help the Soviets could not make the A and H bomb.
This claim about Fuchs ( without Fuchs no atom bomb ) is only arrogance and refusal to admit that the Soviets also had nuclear scientists ,which is a typical example of willingly underestimating the enemy . China and France also have nuclear weapons, without the intervention of Fuchs ,and they were not more intelligent than the Soviets .
Teller was making the H bomb for the US ,but the SU did not need him to make its own H bomb .The SU had the first ICBM,without needing the intervention of Western scientists .

Straaaawmaaaan

Ljadw, I never said that "without Fuchs, there would be no nuclear weapons for SU". But I think his leaked informations speeded up the Soviet development.

Also, I never said that SU is an "enemy" of mine. First of all, it does not exist anymore. Second, I had a chance to get familiar with many Soviet cultural products. Eg. Tarkovskij's Stalker is my favorite movie ever. Marina Devyatova is the best popfolk in the world. I esteem the Russian culture and I have nothing against those people.

There is no proof that the Fuchs informations speeded up the Soviet development ,although it is possible .
The Soviet nuclear explosion in 1949 ( which on it self had not much military importance ) was a big defeat for the US : the supremacy of liberal capitalism was challenged/questioned,and the US who were convinced that they had won the war single-handed reacted as one could expect :it was impossible that these primitive Russians could do what we did,they must have received the help from one of us : a traitor .And when the Soviets built the H bomb, the American pride was hurt again and the reaction ewas the same .Only in 1957 -when the Soviets built as first a ICBM- did the US accept reality ( there was no traitor left to explain the Soviet success ).
I did not say that you considered the SU as an enemy, :the SU was considered as an enemy by the West,and it is dangerous to refuse to accept that the enemy is as capable as you .The West (especially the US ) has almost continuously refused to accept that the enemy was in a lot of aspects,as capable/or even more capable as itself. This had bad results, in Vietnam, in the ME .

[ljadw]

China and France also have nuclear weapons, without the intervention of Fuchs ,and they were not more intelligent than the Soviets .

France is allied with the USA. During the start of the Vietnam War, the US even offered two nuclear bombs to France, but the French did not accepted it.
And China, despite having it`s problems with SU in the past, still has a pragmatic alliance with them, like India nowadays is building modern missiles like BrahMos together with Russia. The same for North Korea, by the way. Don`t you believe that China have something to do with the Kim Jong Un bomb?


A bit off topic, but how do I spell your name, Ljawd? I thought your name was writing with an "i" instead of a "L" in the beginning.

China and France were capable to build their nuclear weapons without the help of the US /SU ,if they could do it, why not the SU ?
My name is written with a ''L '' in the beginning .
I have also my doubts about the enumeration of "Jewish "' nuclear scientists: I don't see the relevance of it ,their number was almost insignificant compared to the thousands of scientists and technicians who worked on the Manhattan project.Hahn, Heisenberg, von Weiszäcker, were not Jewish .

[AbollonPolweder]

The Germans planned to defeat the SU in a short campaign of not more than 10 weeks,why : because they had only 10 weeks to defeat the SU .Barbarossa could succeed only if during these 10 weeks the Red Army would be defeated AND if this defeat would result in the collaps of the SU .

Could you give as the original german source where this duration of "10 weeks " is mentioned?

[AbollonPolweder]

Adolf had a lot of imagination : 3,6 million POWs at the end o october ?In November and December there was an additional number of 360000

It could be. But what about imagination of mister Ljadw? of a man without "lokation"? of a stranger in the night?

[Paul Lakowski]

ljadw thinks SU is invincible , that's all you need to know. Its revisionist history to try to redress the imbalance in historiography.

[Peter89]

I have also my doubts about the enumeration of "Jewish "' nuclear scientists: I don't see the relevance of it ,their number was almost insignificant compared to the thousands of scientists and technicians who worked on the Manhattan project.Hahn, Heisenberg, von Weiszäcker, were not Jewish .

Well, the discriminative laws against Jews - as well as their social status - made a very competitive selection of them at the universities. Eg. in Hungary, the admittance of Jews to higher education was restricted as early as 1920. One by one, many countries started to use quotas for Jews, resulting in the considerable grow of their average skills compared to the majority. The term you are looking for is Numersus clausus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus

Also, they were very well-connected. Eg. In Hungary, most of the prominent Jewish emigreés were learing in the same high schools, educated on mathematics by the same teacher.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasori_Gimnázium

Indeed they were not Jewish, also they were working on the German A-bomb program. The question is still debated, if they really worked on the program, or actually tried to slow it down... I'd like to hear your opinion about this.

[Stugbit]

My name is written with a ''L '' in the beginning .

Ok, thanks for the explanation, I`ll write your name correctly for now on.

In my opinion France and China built their nuclear weapons with the help of US and SU. No country ever built a nuclear weapon alone, Manhattan Project was a compilation of various scientists from many nations working hardcore together to reach it.

There`s still many examples of failure, though. Peron in Argentina once contracted some German scientists to built nuclear energy for him. He thought every kitchen in every house and every car on the streets would have a nuclear reactor for itself. It turns out that the Germans took all the money and fled the country some time after.

I don`t know where you got this thinking that the Western Powers considered SU primitive, inferior. Every book I read of the Cold War period by the Western block I can see no understimation of any kind, on the contrary, much more fear and some respect for the Soviet. In the 70`s, when the military balance was pending heavely to the Soviet side, there`s even an important book from John Hackett: The Third World War: August 1985 . That fiction book caused much scare on the Western Power leaders and helped pave the way for policies that brought the balance for their side.


Having it`s part in the Manhattan Project or not, it is undeniable the importance of the Jewish scientists and thinkers for humanity. Just look at the Nobel Prize lists, most of the people there have at least some kind of Jewish ancestry.

[ljadw]

The Germans planned to defeat the SU in a short campaign of not more than 10 weeks,why : because they had only 10 weeks to defeat the SU .Barbarossa could succeed only if during these 10 weeks the Red Army would be defeated AND if this defeat would result in the collaps of the SU .

Could you give as the original german source where this duration of "10 weeks " is mentioned?

Operation Barbarossa and Germany's defeat in the East (Stahel ) P 41: operationsentwurf Ost (the Marcks 'proposals )
First Phase :pushing back the Red Army's vanguard to its older defense line,400 km from the border : 3 weeks
Second Phase :breakthrough and encirclment of the Soviet defensive positions : 2 to 4 weeks
Third phase : advance to Leningrad, Moscow, eastern Ukraine : 3 to 6 weeks .
Fourth Phase : occupation of the SU to the Don,middle Volga,and upper Dvina ;3 to 4 weeks.
But ,it was assumed that the SU would be defeated before the period of 10 weeks : also from Stahel ( P 63 ):Brauchitz :Massive frontier battles to be expected;duration up to four weeks .But in further development only minor resistance is then to be reckoned with .( Stahel's source : Cecil : Hitler's decision to invade Russia 1941 P 129;Leach :German strategy against Russia P114 and footnote 1 )
An other source : Diary of Goebbels from June 16 1941 :The Führer estimes that the operation will take 4 months, I reckon on fewer .
For Hitler Barbarossa would be over at the end of October,for Brauchitz,the SU would be defeated before August .
At the end of October, the Germans would be/should be at the A-A line (Archangelsk-Astrachan )
At the question: how would it be possible to go from Moscow (September ) to the AA Line (October ) in ONE month,everyone assumed that the farther the Germans would go east, the less resistance there would be, and that only some 50 divisions would be need ,without tanks and artillery to go from Moscow to the AA line: the smaller the force, the faster the advance: when in 1918 the Germans resumed their advance in the east, they were going by train, the same could/would be done in 1941 .

[ljadw]

The German text of Operationsentwurf Ost is available on PP 376/384 of Operation Barbarossa from Walther Post ;on P 383, one can read :Gesamtzeitbedarf des Feldzuges bis zum gesteckten Ziel mithin zwischen 9 und 17 Wochen .
and also : Schnelle Truppen und Inf-Divisionen im Eisenbahnvormarsch werden diese Verfolgung in der Hauptsache zu leisten haben .(Fourth Phase ) .
This means that some 10 weeks would be neededto defeat the SU followed by a pursuit of some 6 weeks to the A-A line .

[jesk]

The Germans planned to defeat the SU in a short campaign of not more than 10 weeks,why : because they had only 10 weeks to defeat the SU .Barbarossa could succeed only if during these 10 weeks the Red Army would be defeated AND if this defeat would result in the collaps of the SU .

Could you give as the original german source where this duration of "10 weeks " is mentioned?

Operation Barbarossa and Germany's defeat in the East (Stahel ) P 41: operationsentwurf Ost (the Marcks 'proposals )
First Phase :pushing back the Red Army's vanguard to its older defense line,400 km from the border : 3 weeks
Second Phase :breakthrough and encirclment of the Soviet defensive positions : 2 to 4 weeks
Third phase : advance to Leningrad, Moscow, eastern Ukraine : 3 to 6 weeks .
Fourth Phase : occupation of the SU to the Don,middle Volga,and upper Dvina ;3 to 4 weeks.
But ,it was assumed that the SU would be defeated before the period of 10 weeks : also from Stahel ( P 63 ):Brauchitz :Massive frontier battles to be expected;duration up to four weeks .But in further development only minor resistance is then to be reckoned with .( Stahel's source : Cecil : Hitler's decision to invade Russia 1941 P 129;Leach :German strategy against Russia P114 and footnote 1 )
An other source : Diary of Goebbels from June 16 1941 :The Führer estimes that the operation will take 4 months, I reckon on fewer .
For Hitler Barbarossa would be over at the end of October,for Brauchitz,the SU would be defeated before August .
At the end of October, the Germans would be/should be at the A-A line (Archangelsk-Astrachan )
At the question: how would it be possible to go from Moscow (September ) to the AA Line (October ) in ONE month,everyone assumed that the farther the Germans would go east, the less resistance there would be, and that only some 50 divisions would be need ,without tanks and artillery to go from Moscow to the AA line: the smaller the force, the faster the advance: when in 1918 the Germans resumed their advance in the east, they were going by train, the same could/would be done in 1941 .

This is all right. But there is no analysis of military operations. Look at the diaries of Halder, von Bock, Leeb. Memoirs of Guderian. Hitler personally made decisions and this slowed down the offensive. In your posts you absolutely do not touch the course of hostilities! As if there was no war at all.

[Peter89]

The Germans planned to defeat the SU in a short campaign of not more than 10 weeks,why : because they had only 10 weeks to defeat the SU .Barbarossa could succeed only if during these 10 weeks the Red Army would be defeated AND if this defeat would result in the collaps of the SU .

Could you give as the original german source where this duration of "10 weeks " is mentioned?

Operation Barbarossa and Germany's defeat in the East (Stahel ) P 41: operationsentwurf Ost (the Marcks 'proposals )
First Phase :pushing back the Red Army's vanguard to its older defense line,400 km from the border : 3 weeks
Second Phase :breakthrough and encirclment of the Soviet defensive positions : 2 to 4 weeks
Third phase : advance to Leningrad, Moscow, eastern Ukraine : 3 to 6 weeks .
Fourth Phase : occupation of the SU to the Don,middle Volga,and upper Dvina ;3 to 4 weeks.
But ,it was assumed that the SU would be defeated before the period of 10 weeks : also from Stahel ( P 63 ):Brauchitz :Massive frontier battles to be expected;duration up to four weeks .But in further development only minor resistance is then to be reckoned with .( Stahel's source : Cecil : Hitler's decision to invade Russia 1941 P 129;Leach :German strategy against Russia P114 and footnote 1 )
An other source : Diary of Goebbels from June 16 1941 :The Führer estimes that the operation will take 4 months, I reckon on fewer .
For Hitler Barbarossa would be over at the end of October,for Brauchitz,the SU would be defeated before August .
At the end of October, the Germans would be/should be at the A-A line (Archangelsk-Astrachan )
At the question: how would it be possible to go from Moscow (September ) to the AA Line (October ) in ONE month,everyone assumed that the farther the Germans would go east, the less resistance there would be, and that only some 50 divisions would be need ,without tanks and artillery to go from Moscow to the AA line: the smaller the force, the faster the advance: when in 1918 the Germans resumed their advance in the east, they were going by train, the same could/would be done in 1941 .

This is all right. But there is no analysis of military operations. Look at the diaries of Halder, von Bock, Leeb. Memoirs of Guderian. Hitler personally made decisions and this slowed down the offensive. In your posts you absolutely do not touch the course of hostilities! As if there was no war at all.

Jesk, Hitler didn't do it all alone. The Wehrmacht wasn't clean. No one writes a diary / memoir titled 'I screwd it by myself'. You blame your boss, your colleagues, your country, your adversary, the weather, and your bad luck at key moments. Please drop this agenda, it's not working...

[ljadw]

Both Halder and Guderial lied after the war .

[Paul Lakowski]

the solution to all history arguments