Germans holding lines.

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Stugbit
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Germans holding lines.

#1

Post by Stugbit » 27 Aug 2018, 18:10

Another question for you, guys:

The Germans lost many forces in unsubstantial offensives and attacks, such as Operation Typhoon and the Battle of Stalingrad.
I heard some sources saying that they lost quite much as one third of their invading forces during the soviet winter offensive of 41-42. They also lost the entire 6th Army at Stalingrad and many other units.

Yet, back in 43, instead of getting into defensive in the Dniepr River already, where it would be easier to establish a defensive line, they kept on offensive and forth to the Operation Citadel, which granted the Soviet maneuver space for their flank counter-attacks that swept across the German defenses and broke their cohesion.

By 44, any kind of defensive strategy was compromised because of the lack of experienced troops lost in the earlier stages of the war. The giving up of the DAK in Tunisia can also account on that matter, since much of the experienced troops in Afrika could have been used to defend Italy itself.

So, my question is:

If the Germans did back then, let`s say, a “humbler” offensive in Russia, going just to the Dniepr and stopping there, and then getting into defensive, furthermore, without the turmoils of Moscow and Stalingrad battles, how long and how much more effort from the Soviet would have been necessary to get through deeply into the Germans defenses and consequently reaching Berlin?

Hitler main goal in Russia was to take Ukraine in Axis hands, if I`m not mistaken, by the way.

My best regards.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#2

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 06:52

Little initial data for analysis. How many divisions will retreat behind the Dnieper, what tactics are on the defensive. I know that from July 1, 1943 to February 1944, the Wehrmacht's strength declined from 3.1 million to 2.5 million people. Questions for mobilization in Germany. The losses were not so great that they could not be filled.


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Re: Germans holding lines.

#3

Post by Peter89 » 28 Aug 2018, 07:36

Dr. Robert Citino wrote two great books about it. The death of the Wehrmacht and Fighting a lost war. If you want to hear a bit about them, please check his following lectures:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etR87lxdW3w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SdO-btKuds

Regarding the eastern front: Hitler and his generals seriously underestimated the determination of the soviet regime. They subjugated and terrorized their society, so it wasn't an option for them to give up, the social consequences would be huge. They'd fight to the Pacific Ocean if that's what it takes. Soon the Germans experienced the same with the Nazi regime. The few guys who held and served the power knew that their very lives depend on continuing the war to the bitter end and then some more.

Going on the defensive and bleed the Soviets white could only be a short-term strategy. Actually, HGN and HGM did exactly this at Leningrad and Rhzev. In a few years the red army became able to conduct major offensives successfully, thus crushing the seasoned armies of HGM in Operation Bagration. By 1944, the 3 front war was impossible to fight with any troop experience.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#4

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 09:39

Peter89 wrote:
Going on the defensive and bleed the Soviets white could only be a short-term strategy. Actually, HGN and HGM did exactly this at Leningrad and Rhzev. In a few years the red army became able to conduct major offensives successfully, thus crushing the seasoned armies of HGM in Operation Bagration. By 1944, the 3 front war was impossible to fight with any troop experience.
In Bagration, Hitler came up with a strategy for retaining fortresses. When the Germans were surrounded, they did not retreat. This was the reason for the unexpectedly rapid defeat. For 3 years the Germans defended well, until Hitler got tired of it.

https://flamesofwar.com/default.aspx?ta ... _cat_id=36
Vitebsk, along with Orsha, Mogilev and Bobruisk, was declared a Festerplatz, or fortress town. This gave the outnumbered German defenders the benefit of strong defensive positions.
Vitebsk also had some significant natural barriers in terms of marshy ground to the north as well as the formidable Druya and Dvina Rivers. Taking Vitebsk would not be an easy task.

Eerily, things around Vitebsk were relatively quiet. The defenders were fixed in place through limited attacks and artillery barrages. Even so, Field Marshall Busch, commander of the 53rd Corps asked for permission to withdraw from the increasingly precarious bulge but was refused by Hitler.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#5

Post by Peter89 » 28 Aug 2018, 11:15

Ofc they denied the retreat, they were fighting a lost war, where should they retreat? Back to their own lands, where the red army could rape and rob their own population? Those poor resistance pockets in Bagration saved some relatively peaceful days or hours for the German civilians. If I was Hitler, I'd sacrifice the whole Wehrmacht in USSR territory, rather than giving them a chance to bestialize through Central Europe.

Also, the German high command learned a lot from their Soviet counterparts; both terror regimes tried to corner their own soldiers in a hopeless situation to fight beyond sense. The USSR regime had the powerful West as a backup, so they could have hope even in the darkest hours, but the Nazi regime was really playing with its own existence with every cast of the die.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#6

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 11:38

Peter89 wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 11:15
Ofc they denied the retreat, they were fighting a lost war, where should they retreat? Back to their own lands, where the red army could rape and rob their own population? Those poor resistance pockets in Bagration saved some relatively peaceful days or hours for the German civilians. If I was Hitler, I'd sacrifice the whole Wehrmacht in USSR territory, rather than giving them a chance to bestialize through Central Europe.

Also, the German high command learned a lot from their Soviet counterparts; both terror regimes tried to corner their own soldiers in a hopeless situation to fight beyond sense. The USSR regime had the powerful West as a backup, so they could have hope even in the darkest hours, but the Nazi regime was really playing with its own existence with every cast of the die.
With these pockets, Hitler created numerical superiority to the enemy. When they were surrounded, they sat in the field, waiting for what would happen on the flanks. And this was used by the Soviet troops. Timely retreat increased the number of shooting Germans.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#7

Post by Peter89 » 28 Aug 2018, 13:16

I agree with you, but for them, it didn't really matter.

All the senior officiers of the Wehrmacht knew that the war was lost. All they did care about by mid-1943 was benefiting from it economically and to write history with military actions.

They were the social elite, and not just in the Nazi era, but in the past 2-300 years. Their families had immense wealth and power, and not to mention, respect. They weren't expecting this kind of fall from grace.

As I mentioned Citino previously, I'll do it again. Check out The Wehrmacht's last stand, one can get a pretty clear picture about the motivations of the German staff officiers in the late war.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#8

Post by Stugbit » 28 Aug 2018, 14:09

Little initial data for analysis. How many divisions will retreat behind the Dnieper, what tactics are on the defensive. I know that from July 1, 1943 to February 1944, the Wehrmacht's strength declined from 3.1 million to 2.5 million people. Questions for mobilization in Germany. The losses were not so great that they could not be filled.
A good starting point in terms of numbers is the defending forces in 43 plus the casualites of veteran troops that started from battle of Moscow until 43.

Tactics we can consider scenarios were we saw German defending, like the Kuban Campaign, the the defending battles around Leningrad, the pockets of resistence further east back in 44-45, Rommel in the desert. The Italian Campaign was also a good exemple of German defense, but it should be excluded given the nature of the terrain in the Italic peninsula.

Regarding the eastern front: Hitler and his generals seriously underestimated the determination of the soviet regime. They subjugated and terrorized their society, so it wasn't an option for them to give up, the social consequences would be huge. They'd fight to the Pacific Ocean if that's what it takes. Soon the Germans experienced the same with the Nazi regime. The few guys who held and served the power knew that their very lives depend on continuing the war to the bitter end and then some more.

Going on the defensive and bleed the Soviets white could only be a short-term strategy. Actually, HGN and HGM did exactly this at Leningrad and Rhzev. In a few years the red army became able to conduct major offensives successfully, thus crushing the seasoned armies of HGM in Operation Bagration. By 1944, the 3 front war was impossible to fight with any troop experience.
Yes, the nazis did huge crimes against the Soviet people. I think if Hitler invaded Russia as a liberator, instead of a mass murderer, the own Russians would take Moscow for him, since many people were not content with the also somehow brutal Stalinist regime. But Hitler was crazy. Well, even with their existential and racial war against the "slaves", I don't think the Germans would keep their advances into the Pacific, they didn't had the power even to reach Moscow.

As long as I'm concerned, Hitler's main goal was to capture Ukraine for it's agricultural potencial, or am I wrong?

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#9

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 14:31

Peter89 wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 13:16
I agree with you, but for them, it didn't really matter.

All the senior officiers of the Wehrmacht knew that the war was lost. All they did care about by mid-1943 was benefiting from it economically and to write history with military actions.

They were the social elite, and not just in the Nazi era, but in the past 2-300 years. Their families had immense wealth and power, and not to mention, respect. They weren't expecting this kind of fall from grace.

As I mentioned Citino previously, I'll do it again. Check out The Wehrmacht's last stand, one can get a pretty clear picture about the motivations of the German staff officiers in the late war.
Guderian did not understand this, at least. March 30, 1945 was sent by Hitler to resign from the post of Chief of General Staff for the requirement to withdraw troops from Italy, Latvia, Norway and Yugoslavia. He believed this would help the war not to lose. Hitler disagreed and said that the Germans can leave Norway only as prisoners of war.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#10

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 14:37

Stugbit wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 14:09
Little initial data for analysis. How many divisions will retreat behind the Dnieper, what tactics are on the defensive. I know that from July 1, 1943 to February 1944, the Wehrmacht's strength declined from 3.1 million to 2.5 million people. Questions for mobilization in Germany. The losses were not so great that they could not be filled.
A good starting point in terms of numbers is the defending forces in 43 plus the casualites of veteran troops that started from battle of Moscow until 43.

Tactics we can consider scenarios were we saw German defending, like the Kuban Campaign, the the defending battles around Leningrad, the pockets of resistence further east back in 44-45, Rommel in the desert. The Italian Campaign was also a good exemple of German defense, but it should be excluded given the nature of the terrain in the Italic peninsula.
You do not know the basics of the strategy. In battle, one must always strive for numerical superiority. Therefore, as Churchill said, Germany could take full advantage of its central position, gathering all the troops inside the country. Having created a powerful reserve of 30-40 divisions, transferring it to the battlefield to create numerical superiority over the enemy. The Italian and Balkan campaigns were harmful to the Germans, there was wasted resources. These troops were more likely to be involved in Normandy.
As long as I'm concerned, Hitler's main goal was to capture Ukraine for it's agricultural potencial, or am I wrong?
Goals have changed. The meaning was in the inaction of troops. Near Smolensk, the Wehrmacht's large forces expected the release of forces from Kiev. He did not want a simultaneous attack on Moscow and Ukraine. He told the generals what they should choose.

Fuhrer: Moscow or Kiev?
Generals: Moscow and Kiev.
Fuhrer: Moscow or Kiev? In September 1941, 50% of the Wehrmacht did not participate in the fighting.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#11

Post by Peter89 » 28 Aug 2018, 14:58


Yes, the nazis did huge crimes against the Soviet people. I think if Hitler invaded Russia as a liberator, instead of a mass murderer, the own Russians would take Moscow for him, since many people were not content with the also somehow brutal Stalinist regime. But Hitler was crazy. Well, even with their existential and racial war against the "slaves", I don't think the Germans would keep their advances into the Pacific, they didn't had the power even to reach Moscow.
I meant both regimes committed terrible crimes against their OWN people, before they committed them against the enemy's.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#12

Post by Peter89 » 28 Aug 2018, 15:24

Guderian did not understand this, at least. March 30, 1945 was sent by Hitler to resign from the post of Chief of General Staff for the requirement to withdraw troops from Italy, Latvia, Norway and Yugoslavia. He believed this would help the war not to lose. Hitler disagreed and said that the Germans can leave Norway only as prisoners of war.
He was acting.

Look, this is not really easy. Most people can be bought, if you have the proper sum of money or valuables. Guderian is a shining example of this; he even got a military office right after his acquittal from Nürnberg. This is really LOL.

The senior German officiers were systematically bribed out of their morals. I'm not just mentioning Konto5 and those lands they got in the East (eg. Guderian received a 2000 acre estate in Poland), but easily convertible and transferrable benefits as well.

They even received a tax-free birthday present equalling the price of two Panther tanks (~3m USD nowadays)! Don't you think some of that money didn't find its place in some safe Swiss accounts or in South-America? Because I think the senior German officiers prolonged the war because they knew that after the fall of the Reich they'll still be rich beyond measure, and acted like overpaid actors in front of Hitler.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#13

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 15:46

Peter89 wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 15:24
He was acting.

Look, this is not really easy. Most people can be bought, if you have the proper sum of money or valuables. Guderian is a shining example of this; he even got a military office right after his acquittal from Nürnberg. This is really LOL.

The senior German officiers were systematically bribed out of their morals. I'm not just mentioning Konto5 and those lands they got in the East (eg. Guderian received a 2000 acre estate in Poland), but easily convertible and transferrable benefits as well.

They even received a tax-free birthday present equalling the price of two Panther tanks (~3m USD nowadays)! Don't you think some of that money didn't find its place in some safe Swiss accounts or in South-America? Because I think the senior German officiers prolonged the war because they knew that after the fall of the Reich they'll still be rich beyond measure, and acted like overpaid actors in front of Hitler.
You wrote nonsense. The German generals ended up in jail after the defeat. Unlike the junior officers in the POW camps. The elders were waiting for the prison. Some were hanged and shot.
Guderian also received a term. In 1948 was released.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#14

Post by Stugbit » 28 Aug 2018, 16:03

You do not know the basics of the strategy. In battle, one must always strive for numerical superiority. Therefore, as Churchill said, Germany could take full advantage of its central position, gathering all the troops inside the country. Having created a powerful reserve of 30-40 divisions, transferring it to the battlefield to create numerical superiority over the enemy. The Italian and Balkan campaigns were harmful to the Germans, there was wasted resources. These troops were more likely to be involved in Normandy.

Goals have changed. The meaning was in the inaction of troops. Near Smolensk, the Wehrmacht's large forces expected the release of forces from Kiev. He did not want a simultaneous attack on Moscow and Ukraine. He told the generals what they should choose.

Fuhrer: Moscow or Kiev?
Generals: Moscow and Kiev.
Fuhrer: Moscow or Kiev? In September 1941, 50% of the Wehrmacht did not participate in the fighting.
Dear, fellow, I think I didn't get your point very well, would you be kind enough to explain me it once more?

Did you suggested that the Germans had a numerical advantage over the Soviet?

In the goal subject, when I mentioned Ukraine I was meaning the economic purposes only, not the military ones. I think their economic goals did not changed when they invaded, only the military ones, since they underestimate the Soviet in numbers and industrial capacity.

So, Moscow falling or not to the Axis, the Soviet had already transfered and established their factorys and the economic output behind the Urals, it was just a matter of time since the situation in the early war turn it's balance towards the Allies.

The Ostfront was already a defensive war since it's beginning.

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Re: Germans holding lines.

#15

Post by jesk » 28 Aug 2018, 16:16

Stugbit wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 16:03
Dear, fellow, I think I didn't get your point very well, would you be kind enough to explain me it once more?

Did you suggested that the Germans had a numerical advantage over the Soviet?

In the goal subject, when I mentioned Ukraine I was meaning the economic purposes only, not the military ones. I think their economic goals did not changed when they invaded, only the military ones, since they underestimate the Soviet in numbers and industrial capacity.

So, Moscow falling or not to the Axis, the Soviet had already transfered and established their factorys and the economic output behind the Urals, it was just a matter of time since the situation in the early war turn it's balance towards the Allies.

The Ostfront was already a defensive war since it's beginning.
You are talking about the war, not having an idea of ​​tactics and strategy of warfare. Hence silly references to the Urals, industrial potential ...
 At times, the Germans created a numerical advantage. 6 million Soviet prisoners of war to that superfluous confirmation.

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