Barbarossa Planning

[Paul Lakowski]

none of this addresses the issue!

The Red ARMY had 10 armies in first echelon with 12 armies in second echelon.

From August through Dec another 22 fresh Armies were brought from North and east.

A march to Moscow would take until the end of August September, so had the Panzer drive headed south, the bulk of the RED ARMY units would fall on the Panzer rear/logistics etc.

[jesk]

none of this addresses the issue!

The Red ARMY had 10 armies in first echelon with 12 armies in second echelon.

From August through Dec another 22 fresh Armies were brought from North and east.

A march to Moscow would take until the end of August September, so had the Panzer drive headed south, the bulk of the RED ARMY units would fall on the Panzer rear/logistics etc.

From August to December, 3 million Soviet were captured. It is wrong to consider thus armies probably. 5-6 armies attacked the rear, logistics, but Wehrmacht could allocate 200-300 thousand soldiers for cover of the flank 10% of army and it solved a problem.
The pace of "Barbarossa" could be much faster without the intervention of Hitler. 50-100 km per day for the Wehrmacht normal schedule. Accordingly, the Russians have less time to deploy new armies. The blocking of Soviet forces in the Volga region led to the collapse of armies to the west. Without fuel, weapons, it’s like the Yassy-Kishinev operation in August 1944. The Germans were blocked beyond the river and they surrendered.

Perfect plan. Reach the Volga and block the north and south direction.

[Paul Lakowski]

Logistic system is reported to be only viable out to 500km before major regrouping and reposition of supply depot would have to happen along side major vehicle overhauls.

This advance by end of August should be greeted by the mud and thus fall short of Rzhev, Bryansk , Leningrad etc/etc. Not far enough in your map.

[jesk]

Logistic system is reported to be only viable out to 500km before major regrouping and reposition of supply depot would have to happen along side major vehicle overhauls.

This advance by end of August should be greeted by the mud and thus fall short of Rzhev, Bryansk , Leningrad etc/etc. Not far enough in your map.

July 10, Germans entered Smolensk. And it is quite late, Hitler weakened the external front, imposing unnecessary encirclement in the area of Bialystok. Without Hitler, Germans could take Moscow on July 5-7.
Rasputitsa came in October. September was dry.
56 Manstein corps in June for 4 days with the battles passed 300 km. Logistics is not a problem. The range of the truck 400 km, 30 per hour. 1000 km is easy.

The Minsk (Novogrudok) pocket, 24–28 June. Von Boсk was furious at the turn and this gave Russians time to deploy the second strategic echelon.

[Gilles de Rais]

none of this addresses the issue!

The Red ARMY had 10 armies in first echelon with 12 armies in second echelon.

From August through Dec another 22 fresh Armies were brought from North and east.

A march to Moscow would take until the end of August September, so had the Panzer drive headed south, the bulk of the RED ARMY units would fall on the Panzer rear/logistics etc.

From August to December, 3 million Soviet were captured. It is wrong to consider thus armies probably. 5-6 armies attacked the rear, logistics, but Wehrmacht could allocate 200-300 thousand soldiers for cover of the flank 10% of army and it solved a problem.
The pace of "Barbarossa" could be much faster without the intervention of Hitler. 50-100 km per day for the Wehrmacht normal schedule. Accordingly, the Russians have less time to deploy new armies. The blocking of Soviet forces in the Volga region led to the collapse of armies to the west. Without fuel, weapons, it’s like the Yassy-Kishinev operation in August 1944. The Germans were blocked beyond the river and they surrendered.

Perfect plan. Reach the Volga and block the north and south direction.

The puzzle has been solved. I just wonder how all those German generals could not come up with such ingenious move as you painted on the map...

[jesk]

The puzzle has been solved. I just wonder how all those German generals could not come up with such ingenious move as you painted on the map...

There was no need to invent anything new. Even with such plan, the Germans could repeat Napoleon’s campaign. Army groups "North" and "South" bound the enemy on the flanks, the "Center" advanced deeply. But Hitler from the first days of war gave orders that slow down progress towards Moscow. Without Hitler on June 28-30, the Germans entered Smolensk. July 5-7 to Moscow.
In the strip of Army Group "Center" total destruction of all Soviet forces. No prospects stop von Bock's powers.

[doogal]

In essence jesk they did follow Napoleon in that they invaded and were defeated ... But to suggest that simply thrusting east from North of the pripyat marshes without considering the Soviet forces north and south of that thrust is impractical considering the size of the forces deplayed. ...

[jesk]

In essence jesk they did follow Napoleon in that they invaded and were defeated .....

This is a rough comparison glorifying Soviet troops. Even with a large number of obvious mistakes, the Germans inflicted many defeats on the Russians. In 1942, the new "Barbarossa" was not. Army groups "Center" and "North" no longer attacked ...

[doogal]

Not sure how I am glorifying soviet troops by suggesting that ur single eastern thrust would face mounting attacks along the length of its over extended flanks ,??..

Then u switch to the many soviet defeats which is true but they were not sufficient to destroy the Soviet army state or society which was the aim of directive 21...

I have no idea why you reference 1942...

[jesk]

Not sure how I am glorifying soviet troops by suggesting that ur single eastern thrust would face mounting attacks along the length of its over extended flanks ,??..

Then u switch to the many soviet defeats which is true but they were not sufficient to destroy the Soviet army state or society which was the aim of directive 21...

I have no idea why you reference 1942...

I don’t understand the persistent emphasis on 1941. The year 1942 began, the new “Barbarossa” on the positions much closer to Moscow. But Hitler refused to allow the operations of the army groups "Center" and "North". Even with limited plans and mistakes of Hitler, the Germans were able to take 1.5 million prisoners. How do you explain such a number of prisoners when the Wehrmacht uses its capabilities by 10-20%?

[jesk]

But to suggest that simply thrusting east from North of the pripyat marshes without considering the Soviet forces north and south of that thrust is impractical considering the size of the forces deplayed. ...

What are the exhausted forces? The Wehrmacht suffered almost no losses in the summer of 1941.
22.6.1941-31.8.41 87489 303821 19688
https://web.archive.org/web/20150908102 ... dec41.html

Soviet losses in 1945 for 4 months, 3 million killed and wounded.
https://fat-yankey.livejournal.com/33040.html

Referring to the German losses in 1941 as the cause of something, absolute empty logic.

[jesk]

Soviet attacks on the flanks is also a dubious logic. For a serious counterattack, the Russians must leave Leningrad, Kiev, and when they try to get close to the Germans, will be surrounded. Russian counterattack on the flanks is dangerous primarily by approaching to the German troops. The beast itself goes into a trap. Less time Wehrmacht spent on the regrouping of forces.

A strong German strike in central Russia attracts the Soviet armies like a magnet and destroys them.

[jesk]

War is geometry. To win the movement of the army must strive for horizontal. Vertical deviations make the offensive wrong.

[doogal]

Are you suggesting that Dietrich von Bulow was right ??

[jesk]

Clausewitz was right. War should be reduced to a general battle. What did the Russians do in 1812? Why did they not strive to hit the stretched flank, retreating to Moscow? Any blow to the flank is fraught with encirclement and defeat of the attackers. It is not so easy to cut off and destroy an army of a million people.