Barbarossa Planning

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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jesk
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#661

Post by jesk » 05 Feb 2019, 15:52

Bock's answer: never! Only the Führer could do it.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/07.html

2/7/41
Я попросил Гальдера, который сегодня полностью разделяет мою точку зрения, похлопотать о том, чтобы танковые дивизии больше не останавливали. Гальдер поинтересовался, может ли противник, чисто теоретически, остановить продвижение наших танковых групп, и я ответил: «Нет!» Сегодня Верховное командование сухопутных сил издало приказ, согласно которому целый корпус должен атаковать через Пинск в направлении Давидова Городка, который лежит посреди болот. Таким образом Верховное командование сухопутных сил надеется ликвидировать угрозу внутренним флангам армейских групп «Юг» и «Центр» со стороны заболоченной местности. Кто знает, когда я теперь этот корпус увижу?

I asked Halder, who today fully shares my point of view, to plead that tank divisions no longer stop. Halder inquired whether the enemy, theoretically, could stop the advancement of our tank groups, and I replied: “No!” Today, the High Command of the Land Forces issued an order, according to which the whole corps must attack through Pinsk in the direction of Davidov Gorodok, which lies in the middle of the marshes. Thus, the High Command of the Land Forces hopes to eliminate the threat to the internal flank of the army groups "South" and "Center" from the side of the marshland. Who knows when I see this corps now?
Last edited by jesk on 05 Feb 2019, 15:55, edited 2 times in total.

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#662

Post by AbollonPolweder » 05 Feb 2019, 15:54

jesk wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 10:51
Notice how easily Germans did it. 2 months Russians prepared, strengthened defense. Germans attacked and after 2 days it was all over. Blew off as wind straw ...
The real war was fought between Hitler and Germany. Hitler won.
Did Hitler at that time settle personal scores with Germany or was he an agent of Stalin? :wink: Or of Roosevelt-Churchill?
About "how easily" you're absolutely right! If we take into account how Guderian "fell" from Roslavl to the latitude of Kiev on 500 km, then returned and actually without a break began a new offensive. God only knows how he or OKH managed to secure supplies! :o And weather conditions and condition of roads! Plus the frequent lack of intelligence reports from the Luftwaffe (due to bad weather) about the movements of Russian troops! It is terrible to imagine what would have done von Bock and Guderian if they had launched an attack on Moscow in mid-August! 8O
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find


jesk
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#663

Post by jesk » 05 Feb 2019, 16:06

AbollonPolweder wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 15:54
jesk wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 10:51
Notice how easily Germans did it. 2 months Russians prepared, strengthened defense. Germans attacked and after 2 days it was all over. Blew off as wind straw ...
The real war was fought between Hitler and Germany. Hitler won.
Did Hitler at that time settle personal scores with Germany or was he an agent of Stalin? :wink: Or of Roosevelt-Churchill?
About "how easily" you're absolutely right! If we take into account how Guderian "fell" from Roslavl to the latitude of Kiev on 500 km, then returned and actually without a break began a new offensive. God only knows how he or OKH managed to secure supplies! :o And weather conditions and condition of roads! Plus the frequent lack of intelligence reports from the Luftwaffe (due to bad weather) about the movements of Russian troops! It is terrible to imagine what would have done von Bock and Guderian if they had launched an attack on Moscow in mid-August! 8O
The participants Boby, ljadw, Hanny proposed to logistically prove the ability of the Wehrmacht to advance to Moscow. No numbers provided. Attempts to only refer to the authority of historians. Glanz, Creveld said something in their favor.
It is even interesting. People are afraid of alternatives. If the offensive was not, then it could not be. The essence of logic in this. The alternative strains the brain, makes life more difficult. 8-)

Boby
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#664

Post by Boby » 05 Feb 2019, 16:43

Stop repeating nonsense jesk.

An attack is always possible, the question is: how much troops and how many supplies? And, the most important point: soviet strenght.

If you can send only 5 Panzer divisions to Moscow direction, with soviet forces not defeated north and south of Smolensk, and daily supplies not enough even for replenishment, then it is quite clear the whole idea was a pure waste.

Hanny
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#665

Post by Hanny » 05 Feb 2019, 17:03

Logistical numbers have been provided from the German records Halder/wagner etc, in this and other threads, as to what force levels could be supported, only one poster is unable to understand the numbers and what they mean, but prefers to invent numbers and arguments, plans, situations, that never existed.

Jesk is clearly a liar, and why the forum host put up with that is beyond me. Perhaps they want a forum full of childish posts. :lol:
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#666

Post by jesk » 05 Feb 2019, 17:54

Boby wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 16:43
Stop repeating nonsense jesk.

An attack is always possible, the question is: how much troops and how many supplies? And, the most important point: soviet strenght.

If you can send only 5 Panzer divisions to Moscow direction, with soviet forces not defeated north and south of Smolensk, and daily supplies not enough even for replenishment, then it is quite clear the whole idea was a pure waste.
if 5 divisions, but if 15. Gymnastics for the mind, continued ... :)

Boby
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#667

Post by Boby » 05 Feb 2019, 17:58

For comparison, look at the Kiev battle
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... 41a_lg.jpg

You can see, there is a lot of german divisions, from both Süd and Mitte, and the attack north-south was going WEST, the rest simply holding it.

There would be no such thing in Moscow. There were no infantry divisions waiting east of the capital. Yet jesk things 14 divisions + unknown reserves is enough. To reach it? To capture it? To encircle it? And if the soviets retreats east? If they attacked?

A lot of unanswered question jesk is not interested.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#668

Post by jesk » 05 Feb 2019, 18:02

Hanny wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 17:03
Logistical numbers have been provided from the German records Halder/wagner etc, in this and other threads, as to what force levels could be supported, only one poster is unable to understand the numbers and what they mean, but prefers to invent numbers and arguments, plans, situations, that never existed.

Jesk is clearly a liar, and why the forum host put up with that is beyond me. Perhaps they want a forum full of childish posts. :lol:
Jesk doesn't understand the obvious about supply 8-)
Just do not about Wagner and Halder. They are for the attack on Moscow. Halder called the refusal of an attack on Moscow in August, the largest strategic mistake of the eastern company. And he believed that with the fall of Moscow the war would end.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#669

Post by jesk » 05 Feb 2019, 18:06

Boby wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 17:58
For comparison, look at the Kiev battle
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... 41a_lg.jpg

You can see, there is a lot of german divisions, from both Süd and Mitte, and the attack north-south was going WEST, the rest simply holding it.

There would be no such thing in Moscow. There were no infantry divisions waiting east of the capital. Yet jesk things 14 divisions + unknown reserves is enough. To reach it? To capture it? To encircle it? And if the soviets retreats east? If they attacked?

A lot of unanswered question jesk is not interested.
This is logic on the map. As in Kiev. Von Bock protested against the attack on Nevel and advocated the fastest offensive on Moscow. In your posts, Boby, a lot of empty logic.

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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#670

Post by Boby » 05 Feb 2019, 18:15

jesk wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 17:54
Boby wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 16:43
Stop repeating nonsense jesk.

An attack is always possible, the question is: how much troops and how many supplies? And, the most important point: soviet strenght.

If you can send only 5 Panzer divisions to Moscow direction, with soviet forces not defeated north and south of Smolensk, and daily supplies not enough even for replenishment, then it is quite clear the whole idea was a pure waste.
if 5 divisions, but if 15. Gymnastics for the mind, continued ... :)
There was no plan, nothing worked for an attack. Only brief comments in Halder diary, wich nothing demostrates.

A lot of infantry was needed in the north, it was needed in Byalistok-Minsk, Smolensk, it was needed in Uman, in Kiev, in Viazma-Bryansk. Now jesk is saying: 14 divisions are enough to crush the entire Western front + Reserve front with spearheads and liquidate it with a few infantry divisions.

ljadw
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#671

Post by ljadw » 06 Feb 2019, 11:33

jesk wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 17:54
Boby wrote:
05 Feb 2019, 16:43
Stop repeating nonsense jesk.

An attack is always possible, the question is: how much troops and how many supplies? And, the most important point: soviet strenght.

If you can send only 5 Panzer divisions to Moscow direction, with soviet forces not defeated north and south of Smolensk, and daily supplies not enough even for replenishment, then it is quite clear the whole idea was a pure waste.
if 5 divisions, but if 15. Gymnastics for the mind, continued ... :)
What Jesk ignores/wisely is hiding is the FACT that even if Barbarossa was successful in June/July and the Soviets were defeated west of the DD line ( which they weren't ) and east of the DD line were on the run ( which they weren't) ,AGC still would have remained idle for several weeks to resupply its units and that a pursuit direction Moscow was excluded in July .
And as in the HTL the Soviets were not defeated/ not on the run,an attack direction Moscow was not only excluded in July, but also in August ,because ... such an attack against an undefeated enemy demanded more resupplying and thus more time than a pursuit of an enemy who was on the run .
If A (pursuit of an enemy on the run ) was not possible in July, why should B ( an attack against an undefeated enemy ) be possible in July or August ?
One example : it would take the railways weeks to transport the enormous amount of artillery ammunition to the front , even if this artillery ammunition was available in Germany, something which is unproved and even unlikely .
It is the same for fuel, trucks, tanks , ...

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Stugbit
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#672

Post by Stugbit » 06 Feb 2019, 19:48

Guys, how important were the reinforces that arrived from the Far East to defend Moscow in Typhoon? They played a big role in the battle?

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Barbarossa Planning - (General Oberst von Jesk Victorious).

#673

Post by Robert Rojas » 06 Feb 2019, 20:26

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Tuesday - February 05, 2019 - 6:06am, if you are Hell bent on an "alternative" approach to your Moscow dilemma, old yours truly would like to recommend the following work of FICTIONAL LITERATURE for your perusal. The work in question is entitled as THE MOSCOW OPTION: An Alternative Second World War. The author is David Downing. Way back in year 1980, David Downing ostensibly adopted many of your colorful assertions and cobbled together the capture of Moscow on October 07, 1941. Of course, Adolf Hitler was conveniently out of the picture as a result of an aircraft accident and there was an uncharacteristic UNITY OF COMMAND amongst the generalship of the Wehrmacht with the all knowing Bohemian Corporal convalescing in a comatose state. Hermann Göring was not particularly inclined to meddle with the strategic desires of the Feldgrau leadership . This WHAT IF approach ought to address and satisfy whatever fantasy OR fantasies that you have been entertaining since the inception of this pet project of yours. ENJOY! Well, that's my latest two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this sojourn down the primrose path to only God knows where - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

Boby
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#674

Post by Boby » 06 Feb 2019, 20:43

Liebenstein tells Schmundt conditions in Panzergruppe 2, 12 july
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/4

ljadw
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Re: Barbarossa Planning

#675

Post by ljadw » 06 Feb 2019, 22:28

Stugbit wrote:
06 Feb 2019, 19:48
Guys, how important were the reinforces that arrived from the Far East to defend Moscow in Typhoon? They played a big role in the battle?
NO : only a few divisions . This has been discussed already on this forum .

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