von Bock and Voronej

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DavidFrankenberg
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von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 21 Jan 2019 20:25

Hi,
von Bock was dismissed after he disobeyed and tried to take Voronej with a lot of troops, especially the 24th arm. div and Grossdeutschland division. This try delayed the moves of those armored divisions and prevented the encirclment of soviet troops in the south.
This could be read in Halder's diary :
3 July
At the front of Heeresgruppe Mitte, the enemy appears to be dragging off forces from the front of the 2. Panzer-Armee to the Voronezh region. Operation "Seidlits" is developing very slowly.
To take Voronezh by no means under any circumstances.
5th july
the Führer himself at the conference made it emphatically clear' that he did not attach any particular importance to Voronej and left it to the judgment of army Gp that objective go if it could be had only at great cost, von Bock tolerated Hoth' senseless rush for Voronezh and even encouraged it.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 22 Jan 2019 07:42

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Jan 2019 20:25
Hi,
von Bock was dismissed after he disobeyed and tried to take Voronej with a lot of troops, especially the 24th arm. div and Großdeutschland division. This try delayed the moves of those armored divisions and prevented the encirclment of soviet troops in the south.
July 5, Hitler drew attention to the incorrect movement of 16 and 23 divisions. GD and 24. PD in second place. Logic.
Image
As I expected, von Bock did not understand what was wanted of him. According to Hitler, the divisions were supposed to move south. But why? July 3 at 21.35 from the HGr "Süd" received a telegram about the defeated enemy. Hitler did not want to believe such reports.
http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".
The following telegram was received from HGr Süd at 21.35: “The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went out on the line of Valuyki, Nikolaevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak areas through Tikhaya Sosna and thus securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "

July 6, Halder wrote that the Führer inclines to the second possibility about elastic defense of the enemy.
Image
At the meeting 18.50 - 19.30 July 6, Hitler demanded the speedy movement of tank divisions to the south, the enemy leaves! Matter of a few hours!
Timoshenko's troops is the South-Western Front.
Записи совещания с фюрером (18.50) и переговоров между Кей-телем и Гальдером (19.30) 6.7.1942 г. {576}
Разговор с фюрером. Если город (Воронеж) свободен от противника, его надо взять. Ростов (сравнение!).
Все это не соответствует донесениям! Необходимо перерезать железные дороги.
Дело идет о нескольких часах. Тим(ошенко) уходит из-под удара. Бросить вслед за ним моторизованные (соединения)!
Кейтелъ. Фюрер вместе с фон Боком определили рубеж, за который не должны выходить основные силы в ходе преследования.
Воронеж, если он свободен, занять пехотой! Не давать сюда ни одной моторизованной дивизии!
Все зависит от быстрейшего ввода «Великой Германии» и 24-й танковой дивизии вслед за 40-м армейским корпусом. После этого ввести здесь 11-ю и 9-ю танковые дивизии. Снабжение горючим!
Листа держать наготове со всеми подручными средствами!..
Records of the meeting with the Fuhrer (18.50) and negotiations between Kay-tel and Halder (19.30) 6.7.1942. {576}
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
All this does not correspond to the reports! It is necessary to cut the railways.
It's about a few hours. Tim (Oshenko) leaves from under blow. Throw after him motorized (compound)!
Keitel. The Führer, together with von Bock, determined the line beyond which the main forces should not go during the pursuit.
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division!
It all depends on the fastest entry of the "Great Germany" and the 24. Panzer-Division following the XXXX. AK. After that, enter here the 11. PD and 9. PD. Fuel supply!
List to keep ready with all available means! ..

Now about losses of the South-Western Front. On June 27, the number of 28 army 77232 people. In the 9. Armee 96053.
Image
http://don1942.ru/images/maps/maps27poloj_st_28_06.jpg
June 30 began offensive of the 6. Armee. The number of armies on July 4, 30233; 76180. Losses June 30 - July 3, 46999; 19873
Image
http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... zhenie-2-3
On July 17, 1,500 people remained in the 28 army.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/shein_ov/03.html
По состоянию на 17 июля 1942 года 28-я армия практически прекратила существование. Ее состав составлял в пределах полутора тысяч человек, то есть не достигал и полка. Причем эти полторы тысячи человек были деморализованы и измождены, среди них преобладали тыловые службы.
Штаб армии — 117 человек
175-я сд — 352 человека
169-я сд — 786 человек
15-я гвсд — 325 человек
17-я истребит. бр. — 21 человек.
Эти остатки были переданы 21-й армии, а штаб придан вновь создаваемой 4-й танковой армии.
As of July 17, 1942, the 28th Army practically ceased to exist. Its composition was within one and a half thousand people, that is, it did not reach the regiment. Moreover, these one and a half thousand people were demoralized and exhausted, rear services prevailed among them.
Army headquarters - 117 people
175th SD - 352 people
169th SD - 786 people
15th gvsd - 325 people
17th will destroy. br. - 21 people.
These remnants were transferred to the 21st Army, and the headquarters were given to the newly created 4. Panzer-Armee

In the 9th Army 22.7 10066 people, 1441 rifles
http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... pyakh-yuga
9А в конце дня 22.7 продолжала сосредоточение в районе Верх.Хомутец, Красная Звезда, Заполос. Собралось – 10066 человек, 1441 винтовок, в ночь на 23.7 остатками частей, сведенными в отряды, 9А выдвигалась в район Веселый для организации обороны дамбы Манычстрой.
9A at the end of the day, 22.7 continued concentration in the area of Verkh.Homutets, Krasnaya Zvezda, Zapolos. 10066 people assembled, 1441 rifles, on the night of 23.7 the remnants of the units, assembled in detachments, 9A were moved to the Vesely area to organize the defense of the Manychstroy dam.

Theses that the Soviet troops escaped encirclement are not documented. Until mid-July, the South-Western Front was completely destroyed. The tasks of destroying the remnants of the front of Tymoshenko were solved during the pursuit of the enemy. No environment was needed. The negative consequence of the order of Hitler was the weakening of the Stalingrad direction. The 4. Panzer-Armee continued moving south and only on July 30 turned to Stalingrad. Soviet troops received at least 2 weeks to deploy reserves there.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 22 Jan 2019 18:32

See.
Hitler didnt want any motorized div in Voronej. He wnated to take it only if it was "free".
But it was not.
Hitler forbade VB to use a single motorized unit to go into Voronej. And what did VB ? He launched GD and 24th arm div.

Hitler wanted these motorized div. to go south and encircle soviet troops who were going back. Hitler, unlike Halder or others, was right : soviet troops were retreating, the ennmy was not annihilated. VB should have launched his mot. div. south.

Hitler was right.
VB was wrong. He disobeyed. He failed. He was dismissed.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 22 Jan 2019 21:19

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:32
See.
Hitler didnt want any motorized div in Voronej. He wnated to take it only if it was "free".
But it was not.
Hitler forbade VB to use a single motorized unit to go into Voronej. And what did VB ? He launched GD and 24th arm div.
On the evening of July 6th, Hitler said this.
Разговор с фюрером. Если город (Воронеж) свободен от противника, его надо взять. Ростов (сравнение!).
Воронеж, если он свободен, занять пехотой! Не давать сюда ни одной моторизованной дивизии!
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division!

July 5th 24. Panzer-Division fought in Voronezh.
http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/6 ... _bylo.html
Уже 4 июля завязались бои на подступах к Воронежу, а на следующий день 24-я танковая дивизия XXXXVIII танкового корпуса армии Г.Гота, форсировав р. Дон, ворвалась в западную часть Воронежа. Севернее 24-й дивизии форсировала Дон и образовала два плацдарма «Великая Германия». Прорыв в глубину обороны был столь стремительным, что Воронеж был захвачен уже 7 июля 1942 г., задача первой фазы операции была немцами выполнена. Уже 5 июля Вейхсу было приказано высвобождать подвижные соединения 4-й танковой армии в районе Воронежа и двигать их на юг.
Already on July 4, battles began at the approaches to Voronezh, and the next day the 24. Panzer-Division of the XXXXVIII. PzK of the army of G. Hoth, forcing the river. Don, broke into the western part of Voronezh. North of the 24th Division, Don crossed the line and formed two “Great Germany” bridgeheads. The breakthrough into the depth of defense was so rapid that Voronezh was captured already on July 7, 1942, the task of the first phase of the operation was carried out by the Germans. Already on July 5, Weichs was ordered to release mobile units of the 4th Tank Army in the Voronezh region and move them south.
Hitler wanted these motorized div. to go south and encircle soviet troops who were going back. Hitler, unlike Halder or others, was right : soviet troops were retreating, the ennmy was not annihilated. VB should have launched his mot. div. south.
Hitler was right.
VB was wrong. He disobeyed. He failed. He was dismissed.
Hitler thought, will be able to surround a lot of Russian forces. But he was wrong, already in first days of the offensive the enemy was completely defeated. For the sake of an environment of the remains nobody changes plans of operations. The environment in the Millerovo region arose due to Hitler’s misinterpretation of sources. Halder wrote about it on July 6th. 'foreign reports' helped Hitler
Image

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019 11:16

jesk wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:19
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:32
See.
Hitler didnt want any motorized div in Voronej. He wnated to take it only if it was "free".
But it was not.
Hitler forbade VB to use a single motorized unit to go into Voronej. And what did VB ? He launched GD and 24th arm div.
On the evening of July 6th, Hitler said this.
Разговор с фюрером. Если город (Воронеж) свободен от противника, его надо взять. Ростов (сравнение!).
Воронеж, если он свободен, занять пехотой! Не давать сюда ни одной моторизованной дивизии!
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division!
Source ?
July 5th 24th Panzer Division fought in Voronezh.
http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/6 ... _bylo.html
Уже 4 июля завязались бои на подступах к Воронежу, а на следующий день 24-я танковая дивизия XXXXVIII танкового корпуса армии Г.Гота, форсировав р. Дон, ворвалась в западную часть Воронежа. Севернее 24-й дивизии форсировала Дон и образовала два плацдарма «Великая Германия». Прорыв в глубину обороны был столь стремительным, что Воронеж был захвачен уже 7 июля 1942 г., задача первой фазы операции была немцами выполнена. Уже 5 июля Вейхсу было приказано высвобождать подвижные соединения 4-й танковой армии в районе Воронежа и двигать их на юг.
Already on July 4, battles began at the approaches to Voronezh, and the next day the 24th Panzer Division of the XXXXVIII. PzK of the army of G. Hoth, forcing the river. Don, broke into the western part of Voronezh. North of the 24th Division, Don crossed the line and formed two “Great Germany” bridgeheads. The breakthrough into the depth of defense was so rapid that Voronezh was captured already on July 7, 1942, the task of the first phase of the operation was carried out by the Germans. Already on July 5, Weichs was ordered to release mobile units of the 4. PzAOK in the Voronezh region and move them south.
You are describing the disobedience of Hoth and VB.
Hitler wanted these motorized div. to go south and encircle soviet troops who were going back. Hitler, unlike Halder or others, was right : soviet troops were retreating, the ennmy was not annihilated. VB should have launched his mot. div. south.
Hitler was right.
VB was wrong. He disobeyed. He failed. He was dismissed.
Hitler thought, will be able to surround a lot of Russian forces. But he was wrong, already in first days of the offensive the enemy was completely defeated. For the sake of an environment of the remains nobody changes plans of operations. The environment in the Millerovo region arose due to Hitler’s misinterpretation of sources. Halder wrote about it on July 6th. 'foreign reports' helped Hitler
Hitler guessed that soviets were retreating.
That's why he was enraged that Hoth and VB didnt send their arm. units down south to cut the retreat of the soviets.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 11:45

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 11:16
jesk wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:19
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:32
See.
Hitler didnt want any motorized div in Voronej. He wnated to take it only if it was "free".
But it was not.
Hitler forbade VB to use a single motorized unit to go into Voronej. And what did VB ? He launched GD and 24. PD
On the evening of July 6th, Hitler said this.
Разговор с фюрером. Если город (Воронеж) свободен от противника, его надо взять. Ростов (сравнение!).
Воронеж, если он свободен, занять пехотой! Не давать сюда ни одной моторизованной дивизии!
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division!
Source ?
Halder's diary. In the English version there is no application to the diary.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
6 июля 1942 года, 380-й день войны
Записи совещания с фюрером (18.50) и переговоров между Кей-телем и Гальдером (19.30) 6.7.1942 г. {576}
Разговор с фюрером. Если город (Воронеж) свободен от противника, его надо взять. Ростов (сравнение!).
Все это не соответствует донесениям! Необходимо перерезать железные дороги.
Дело идет о нескольких часах. Тим(ошенко) уходит из-под удара. Бросить вслед за ним моторизованные (соединения)!
Кейтелъ. Фюрер вместе с фон Боком определили рубеж, за который не должны выходить основные силы в ходе преследования.
Воронеж, если он свободен, занять пехотой! Не давать сюда ни одной моторизованной дивизии!
Все зависит от быстрейшего ввода «Великой Германии» и 24-й танковой дивизии вслед за 40-м армейским корпусом. После этого ввести здесь 11-ю и 9-ю танковые дивизии. Снабжение горючим!
Листа держать наготове со всеми подручными средствами!..
July 5th 24. Panzer-Division fought in Voronezh.
http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/6 ... _bylo.html
Уже 4 июля завязались бои на подступах к Воронежу, а на следующий день 24-я танковая дивизия XXXXVIII танкового корпуса армии Г.Гота, форсировав р. Дон, ворвалась в западную часть Воронежа. Севернее 24-й дивизии форсировала Дон и образовала два плацдарма «Великая Германия». Прорыв в глубину обороны был столь стремительным, что Воронеж был захвачен уже 7 июля 1942 г., задача первой фазы операции была немцами выполнена. Уже 5 июля Вейхсу было приказано высвобождать подвижные соединения 4-й танковой армии в районе Воронежа и двигать их на юг.
Already on July 4, battles began at the approaches to Voronezh, and the next day the 24. Panzer-Division of the XXXXVIII tank corps of the army of G. Hoth, forcing the river. Don, broke into the western part of Voronezh. North of the 24th Division, Don crossed the line and formed two “Great Germany” bridgeheads. The breakthrough into the depth of defense was so rapid that Voronezh was captured already on July 7, 1942, the task of the first phase of the operation was carried out by the Germans. Already on July 5, Weichs was ordered to release mobile units of the 4th Tank Army in the Voronezh region and move them south.
You are describing the disobedience of Hoth and VB.
I already wrote, from the recommendations of July 3, it was not just to highlight Hitler's desires. He allowed to take Voronezh, if there is no large forces. Already on July 7, took the city. Rostov for 56 hours, Voronezh approximately the same interval. It is very fast for a 400 thousand city. On July 3, at 21.35, the army group sent a telegram to the authorities on the advance of 40 tank corps to the east. There was no objection. And only on July 5, Hitler unexpectedly made a complaint.
Hitler guessed that soviets were retreating.
That's why he was enraged that Hoth and VB didnt send their arm. units down south to cut the retreat of the soviets.
One person can also escape, for example, to South Africa. Is it worth the Wehrmacht trying to catch up with him? What was important was the analysis of the enemy’s combat capability. On July 6, Halder doubted Hitler’s conclusions about elastic defense. If 5 Soviet soldiers retreat, does not mean that they should be pursued by 100 thousand Germans. There are more important tasks.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 11:57

This is an important point. July 3 Army Group reported on the plans.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".

The following telegram was received from HGr Süd at 21.35: “The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went out on the line of Valuyki, Nikolaevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak areas through Tikhaya Sosna and thus securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "


How does this fit in with the July 5 criticism !? Clarification of von Bock criticism with other sources shows that it is logically meaningless. Halder simply repeated Hitler's unreasonable accusations. By the way, I wrote about it from the very beginning. New sources only confirm this.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by FORBIN Yves » 23 Jan 2019 12:49

@ jesk
http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ...
Very good but 4th Panzer Army in fact combined with 2nd Army don't have only 85000 mens in more she have XIII AK
Only for the 8 Divisions and this Army is in excellent condition coz the spearhead of the offensive and Pz Divs have 144 - 181 ! tanks for 24th and Inf Dv of the South Army group had again 9 Inf Bns out in general 7 so minimum 110000 mens + organis Elts

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 13:18

FORBIN Yves wrote:
23 Jan 2019 12:49
@ jesk
http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ...
Very good but 4th Panzer Army in fact combined with 2nd Army don't have only 85000 mens in more she have XIII AK
Only for the 8 Divisions and this Army is in excellent condition coz the spearhead of the offensive and Pz Divs have 144 - 181 ! tanks for 24th and Inf Dv of the South Army group had again 9 Inf Bns out in general 7 so minimum 110000 mens + organis Elts
and the Germans won then

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019 13:47

jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 11:45
Halder's diary. In the English version there is no application to the diary.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
There is no such text there :
"Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division! "

Your source is wrong.

The only mention of Voronej the 6th july is that :
"we are informed this afternoon that Voronezh has been evacuated,"
and that
"The reason for this surprising development seems to lie in the fact that Hoth, who approached his mission against Voronezh with serious mental reservations, was prone to take a pessimistic view of the situation."

There is no mention of Voronej the 7th july.

So, what is your source for that claim of the 6th july : "Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division!"
I already wrote, from the recommendations of July 3, it was not just to highlight Hitler's desires. He allowed to take Voronezh, if there is no large forces. Already on July 7, took the city. Rostov for 56 hours, Voronezh approximately the same interval. It is very fast for a 400 thousand city. On July 3, at 21.35, the army group sent a telegram to the authorities on the advance of 40 tank corps to the east. There was no objection. And only on July 5, Hitler unexpectedly made a complaint.
Hitler guessed that soviets were retreating.
That's why he was enraged that Hoth and VB didnt send their arm. units down south to cut the retreat of the soviets.
One person can also escape, for example, to South Africa. Is it worth the Wehrmacht trying to catch up with him? What was important was the analysis of the enemy’s combat capability. On July 6, Halder doubted Hitler’s conclusions about elastic defense. If 5 Soviet soldiers retreat, does not mean that they should be pursued by 100 thousand Germans. There are more important tasks.
Voronej was not taken by the Germans.
VB tried but failed.
Hitler's didnt order to take Voronej, he allowed to take it but only if it was free, if it didnt need a lot of german troops. He ordered arm. div. to go south.
VB not only tried to take Voronej whereas it was not empty, but he also prevented the arm. div. to go south.

That's why he was dismissed.

Hitle was right by guessing that the soviet troops were fleeing.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 14:06

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 13:47
jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 11:45
Halder's diary. In the English version there is no application to the diary.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
There is no such text there :
"Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division! "

Your source is wrong.

The only mention of Voronej the 6th july is that :
"we are informed this afternoon that Voronezh has been evacuated,"
and that
"The reason for this surprising development seems to lie in the fact that Hoth, who approached his mission against Voronezh with serious mental reservations, was prone to take a pessimistic view of the situation."

There is no mention of Voronej the 7th july.

So, what is your source for that claim of the 6th july : "Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give here a single motorized division!"
Halder's diary. In the English version, the diary supplements are published differently.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Image

I already wrote, from the recommendations of July 3, it was not just to highlight Hitler's desires. He allowed to take Voronezh, if there is no large forces. Already on July 7, took the city. Rostov for 56 hours, Voronezh approximately the same interval. It is very fast for a 400 thousand city. On July 3, at 21.35, the army group sent a telegram to the authorities on the advance of 40 tank corps to the east. There was no objection. And only on July 5, Hitler unexpectedly made a complaint.
Hitler guessed that soviets were retreating.
That's why he was enraged that Hoth and VB didnt send their arm. units down south to cut the retreat of the soviets.
One person can also escape, for example, to South Africa. Is it worth the Wehrmacht trying to catch up with him? What was important was the analysis of the enemy’s combat capability. On July 6, Halder doubted Hitler’s conclusions about elastic defense. If 5 Soviet soldiers retreat, does not mean that they should be pursued by 100 thousand Germans. There are more important tasks.
Voronej was not taken by the Germans.
VB tried but failed.
Hitler's didnt order to take Voronej, he allowed to take it but only if it was free, if it didnt need a lot of german troops. He ordered arm. div. to go south.
VB not only tried to take Voronej whereas it was not empty, but he also prevented the arm. div. to go south.

That's why he was dismissed.

Hitle was right by guessing that the soviet troops were fleeing.
I will not repeat. You have only one source - a few short entries from Halder’s diary. Verification of Halder's statements from other sources in some places demonstrates the inconsistency of words with facts. Halder said, but made an inaccuracy. And it happens.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by FORBIN Yves » 23 Jan 2019 15:24

jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 13:18
FORBIN Yves wrote:
23 Jan 2019 12:49
@ jesk
http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ...
Very good but 4th Panzer Army in fact combined with 2nd Army don't have only 85000 mens in more she have XIII AK
Only for the 8 Divisions and this Army is in excellent condition coz the spearhead of the offensive and Pz Divs have 144 - 181 ! tanks for 24th and Inf Dv of the South Army group had again 9 Inf Bns out in general 7 so minimum 110000 mens + organis Elts
and the Germans won then
?

Soviet infos on the maps and in the chart are excellents but for Axis there are error on the maps for personnal Numbers for Armeegruppe Von Weich he have 4 Pz Army, 2 Army and 2 Hungarian Army missing on the map
4 Pz Armee have 24 and 48 PZ Corps also XIII Corps http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IKorps.htm
2 Army have only LV AK
2 Hungarian Army have III Hung and VII German Cops

But possible the 3 Armies can have 280000 mens
Last edited by FORBIN Yves on 23 Jan 2019 15:38, edited 1 time in total.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019 15:33

jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 14:06
Halder's diary. In the English version, the diary supplements are published differently.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Image
What are the diary supplemens ?

I will not repeat. You have only one source - a few short entries from Halder’s diary. Verification of Halder's statements from other sources in some places demonstrates the inconsistency of words with facts. Halder said, but made an inaccuracy. And it happens.
You have better source than Halder's diary ?

jesk
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Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 15:38

FORBIN Yves wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:24
Soviet infos on the maps and in the chart are excelents but for Axis a bit less good and you can see the 28/06 4 PZA have the XIIIAK
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IKorps.htm
2 Army is very small with only LV AK she had after Voronej battle this XIII AK

The 280000 mens on the map can be for these 2 Armies with in more 2 Hungarian Army ?

For other Axis Armies the personnal numbers seems good
On lexicon is not good. There may be data on June 1; operation began 28th. Quotes from the source about the operation "Blau" in the context more closely match.

FORBIN Yves
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Location: FRANCE

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by FORBIN Yves » 23 Jan 2019 15:41

jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:38
On lexicon is not good. There may be data on June 1; operation began 28th. Quotes from the source about the operation "Blau" in the context more closely match.
Not agree and confirmed here 4 PZA have the XIII AK the 28/06
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... y_pz4.html

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