von Bock and Voronej

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 13 Mar 2019 15:49

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 13:35
...
So there is no real source for this quote, despite it summarizes very well the situation in my opinion.
Of course, there is such a document and I laid it on:
Barbarossa Planning
#291 Post by AbollonPolweder » 12 Jan 2019, 21:28
jesk wrote: ↑12 Jan 2019, 17:02
Von Bock wanted to direct the 4th tank army to Stalingrad, the 6th army to Voronezh. Hitler ordered to move 4 TA the South and this army blocked off the traffic of the 6th army. Hitler in his order did not take into account the logistic implications.
I think you're overestimating Hitler's role in operational command. So far, you have not provided a single document. For example: "Besprechung des Führers mit dem Generalfeldmarschall W. Keitel über die Ursachen der erfolglosen Operationen der Wehrmacht in Kaukasus und über die Versetzung der Generale im Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) und an der Front vom 18. September 1942."
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/n ... ect/zoom/9
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 13 Mar 2019 16:17

"For the first time the idea of ​​going to the Caucasus for oil was announced by A. Hitler on July 31, 1942, at the initial stages of the Barbarossa planning."
This phrase is from your link to Isaev. This "historian" :) always has something "new". In this case, about the planning of Barbarossa in 1942.
Putin's propagandist Isaev refers to the Stalinist agitator Proektor. This is all you need to know about the study of the history of WWII in Russia. :(
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 16:24

AbollonPolweder wrote:
13 Mar 2019 16:17
"For the first time the idea of ​​going to the Caucasus for oil was announced by A. Hitler on July 31, 1942, at the initial stages of the Barbarossa planning."
This phrase is from your link to Isaev. This "historian" :) always has something "new". In this case, about the planning of Barbarossa in 1942.
Putin's propagandist Isaev refers to the Stalinist agitator Proektor. This is all you need to know about the study of the history of WWII in Russia. :(
There is just a typo. Isaev does not dig deep, does not claim to be sensational. Narrative at the elementary school level. Popular about history.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 16:33

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 15:21
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 14:14
Do need it? In the diary von Bock detail proceedings for Voronezh. There is boring to read.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/21.html

But let's talk about Voronezh (!) - Keitel continued. - At the beginning of the operation, Halder and I had doubts about whether the operation to seize this city would be connected by our mobile forces to such an extent that it would prevent us from advancing in the direction of the Don. After rereading the directive issued by the Army High Command, I asked the Führer, who was then about to fly into the army group, to inform you that the seizure of Voronezh was not mandatory for you. However, after discussing this issue in Poltava on July 3, I got the impression that this idea was not expressed enough [494] clearly and was not fully communicated to the command of the army group. ”

I stated:
"Nothing like this. My conversation with the Führer about Voronezh ended with the fact that I told him: “As I understand it, I must take Voronezh, if this is not difficult to do, but I don’t have to get involved in heavy and long battles”. The Fuhrer confirmed this with a nod. But then complications began. The liaison officer at the 4th Tank Army radioed the Supreme Command of the land forces that Voronezh could probably be taken only after heavy fighting. Weichs held the opposite opinion, and I agreed with him. While there were discussions on this issue with the High Command of the Ground Forces, on July 6, the tank battalion of the 24th Panzer Division passed through Voronezh almost without a fight, after which we told the High Command of the Ground Forces that it would not be difficult to capture the city ... ”
Keitel said:
"The Fuhrer then said for a long time:" We lost 48 hours near Voronezh. " Apparently, he saw this as a serious waste of time. "
I replied:
“But one should not forget that the whole operation took less time than planned. Several times, including during the meeting with the Führer on July 3, I reminded of the danger of the Russians retreating. Obviously, under the circumstances, I did everything possible to make a turn to the south as quickly as possible. When Halder called General Sodenshtern on July 5 and told him that the Führer was impatient and wondered why the bridgeheads on Silent Pine were not yet captured, I could answer him that these bridgeheads had already been captured. ”
I did not go into further details, which could illustrate how the army group developed an offensive in a southerly direction, overcoming the resistance of the enemy. I, moreover, did not begin to say that [495] it was an army group, and not the Supreme Command of the ground forces at all came to the idea of ​​the greater expediency of an attack by the forces of the right wing of the 4th army, as well as managing the entire operation from a single center from the start.
Toward the end, Keitel remarked that the Führer had expressed doubts as to whether he would allow my health to bring the current operation to the end (!), But this statement of the Führer cannot, of course, be taken seriously.
When the conversation ended, Keitel said:
“I'm not sure that I will be able to find an opportunity to tell the Führer in detail all of the above. This is easier to do in a semi-official setting, but the Fuhrer always meets with me in the presence of two stenographers, in whom I cannot discuss such delicate issues! ”
The source is Von Bock writing the 22 march 1943, almost one year after the events. He talks about Voronej events and remembers a talking with Keitel.

What does VB say ?
VB confirms that Halder said to VB the 2nd july 1942 : the take of Voronej is not obligatory.
The 3d july in Poltava Halder notes that VB has not informed his officers about the non obligation to take Voronej.
VB himself says that the 3rd july in Poltava, Hitler ordered him not to insist in taking Voronej if it is too long and too difficult.
VB himself says that just after the meeting with Hitler in Poltava, he received Hoth's comments about the strike on Voronej. Hoth was fearing that an assault on Voronej would be expensive for his 4th A.
What does VB after that warning ? He decides to go on and attack Voronej with arm. div. against the adivse of Hoth and in agreement with Weichs.

VB then tries to justify himself saying that "the 6th july the 24th Pz crossed Voronej with no serious fights"...
But he just omits to talk about what happened the 4th and the 5th !
Indeed VB does not defend himself very well... indeed he gives credit to Hitler's words when Hitler says : "we have lost 48 precious hours in Voronej".

And this loss of time is due to the stubbornness of VB who wanted absolutely to use 4th and 24th Pz in Voronej.

As i read VB, i remember Halder saying that VB faked reports. It is possible that what Hoth said to VB "after" Poltava's meeting happened indeed BEFORE Poltava's meeting. VB volunteerly hid messages going against his will in order to convince Hitler more easily.

Indeed it confirms Halder' suspicions.
More text and scope for logic. The question with von Bock can be considered closed, for me at least. His excuses to Keitel only proves that he had the choice to make decisions, which he was later accused of incorrectness.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 13 Mar 2019 17:18

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 16:33

More text and scope for logic. The question with von Bock can be considered closed, for me at least. His excuses to Keitel only proves that he had the choice to make decisions, which he was later accused of incorrectness.
Hitler said it that he would let generals decide... VB decided against the advice of Hitler, Hoth, Halder and others... only Weichs supported his view.
And yes he decided and he was wrong !

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 17:41

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 17:18
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 16:33

More text and scope for logic. The question with von Bock can be considered closed, for me at least. His excuses to Keitel only proves that he had the choice to make decisions, which he was later accused of incorrectness.
Hitler said it that he would let generals decide... VB decided against the advice of Hitler, Hoth, Halder and others... only Weichs supported his view.
And yes he decided and he was wrong !
Keitel had the impression ... One of the points of accusation, it seems to him. Hitler's instructions, once again emphasizing, left von Bock a wide range of actions. Blaming him is simply unethical, on the part of Halder and Keitel's lauding.

Перечитав изданную Верховным командованием сухопутных сил директиву, я попросил фюрера, который тогда собирался вылететь в группу армий, поставить вас в известность о том, что захват Воронежа не является для вас обязательным. Однако после обсуждения этого вопроса в Полтаве 3 июля у меня сложилось впечатление, что эта идея не была выражена достаточно [494] ясно и не до конца доведена до сведения командования группы армий».

After rereading the directive issued by the Army High Command, I asked the Führer, who was then about to fly into the army group, to inform you that the seizure of Voronezh was not mandatory for you. However, after discussing this issue in Poltava on July 3, I got the impression that this idea was not expressed enough [494] clearly and was not fully communicated to the command of the army group.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 13 Mar 2019 18:00

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 16:24
Narrative at the elementary school level. Popular about history.
Exactly!
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 13 Mar 2019 19:17

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 17:41


After rereading the directive issued by the Army High Command, I asked the Führer, who was then about to fly into the army group, to inform you that the seizure of Voronezh was not mandatory for you. However, after discussing this issue in Poltava on July 3, I got the impression that this idea was not expressed enough [494] clearly and was not fully communicated to the command of the army group.
Halder just said that the seizure of Voronej was not obligatory. It was said so to VB. Despite this order, VB sneakily managed to deviate the motor. div. to Voronej and immobilized it for 2 days.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 19:31

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:17
Halder just said that the seizure of Voronej was not obligatory. It was said so to VB. Despite this order, VB sneakily managed to deviate the motor. div. to Voronej and immobilized it for 2 days.
Nothing he did not hide. At 21.35 the army group sent a telegram about plans. But Hitler apparently did not receive it.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
The following telegram was received from Army Group South at 21.35: "The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went to the line of Valuyki, Nikolayevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the area of Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak through Tikhaya Sosna and thereby securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 13 Mar 2019 20:55

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:31
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:17
Halder just said that the seizure of Voronej was not obligatory. It was said so to VB. Despite this order, VB sneakily managed to deviate the motor. div. to Voronej and immobilized it for 2 days.
Nothing he did not hide. At 21.35 the army group sent a telegram about plans. But Hitler apparently did not receive it.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
The following telegram was received from Army Group South at 21.35: "The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went to the line of Valuyki, Nikolayevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the area of Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak through Tikhaya Sosna and thereby securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "
Source ?
The same source states that the order to take Voronej was cancelled the 3rd july... Командующий группой армий «Юг» из ставки Гитлера получает приказ: «Задача по взятию Воронежа снимается… Брать Воронеж отнюдь не при любых обстоятельствах. Если выяснится, что противник наступает крупными силами, тогда достаточно выхода к Дону южнее Воронежа».

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 21:09

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 20:55
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:31
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:17
Halder just said that the seizure of Voronej was not obligatory. It was said so to VB. Despite this order, VB sneakily managed to deviate the motor. div. to Voronej and immobilized it for 2 days.
Nothing he did not hide. At 21.35 the army group sent a telegram about plans. But Hitler apparently did not receive it.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
The following telegram was received from Army Group South at 21.35: "The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went to the line of Valuyki, Nikolayevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the area of Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak through Tikhaya Sosna and thereby securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "
Source ?
The same source states that the order to take Voronej was cancelled the 3rd july... Командующий группой армий «Юг» из ставки Гитлера получает приказ: «Задача по взятию Воронежа снимается… Брать Воронеж отнюдь не при любых обстоятельствах. Если выяснится, что противник наступает крупными силами, тогда достаточно выхода к Дону южнее Воронежа».
Von Bock was allowed to take Voronezh. He tried to do it. As he himself later explained. "Any cost" is fast. I think so and von Bock!

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 13 Mar 2019 21:31

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:09
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 20:55
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:31
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:17
Halder just said that the seizure of Voronej was not obligatory. It was said so to VB. Despite this order, VB sneakily managed to deviate the motor. div. to Voronej and immobilized it for 2 days.
Nothing he did not hide. At 21.35 the army group sent a telegram about plans. But Hitler apparently did not receive it.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
The following telegram was received from Army Group South at 21.35: "The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went to the line of Valuyki, Nikolayevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the area of Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak through Tikhaya Sosna and thereby securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "
Source ?
The same source states that the order to take Voronej was cancelled the 3rd july... Командующий группой армий «Юг» из ставки Гитлера получает приказ: «Задача по взятию Воронежа снимается… Брать Воронеж отнюдь не при любых обстоятельствах. Если выяснится, что противник наступает крупными силами, тогда достаточно выхода к Дону южнее Воронежа».
Von Bock was allowed to take Voronezh. He tried to do it. As he himself later explained. "Any cost" is fast. I think so and von Bock!
Please answer my question above.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 21:40

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:31
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:09
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 20:55
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:31
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:17
Halder just said that the seizure of Voronej was not obligatory. It was said so to VB. Despite this order, VB sneakily managed to deviate the motor. div. to Voronej and immobilized it for 2 days.
Nothing he did not hide. At 21.35 the army group sent a telegram about plans. But Hitler apparently did not receive it.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
The following telegram was received from Army Group South at 21.35: "The enemy before 6A and 4TA is defeated. 6A, pursuing the enemy, went to the line of Valuyki, Nikolayevka (east of Budyonny), Silent Pine and Don channels to Thundering (exclusively). At the same time In its former composition, 40TK turns east with the task of seizing bridgehead reinforcement in the area of Ostrogozhsk and Korotoyak through Tikhaya Sosna and thereby securing the southern flank 4TA at the Don. "
Source ?
The same source states that the order to take Voronej was cancelled the 3rd july... Командующий группой армий «Юг» из ставки Гитлера получает приказ: «Задача по взятию Воронежа снимается… Брать Воронеж отнюдь не при любых обстоятельствах. Если выяснится, что противник наступает крупными силами, тогда достаточно выхода к Дону южнее Воронежа».
Von Bock was allowed to take Voronezh. He tried to do it. As he himself later explained. "Any cost" is fast. I think so and von Bock!
Please answer my question above.
The source called the order to take Voronezh not in any circumstances. And about the telegram 21.35 source is known. Order or telegram. Voronezh allowed to take.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 13 Mar 2019 22:17

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:40
And about the telegram 21.35 source is known. Order or telegram. Voronezh allowed to take.
So, what is the source, please ?

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 22:53

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:17
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:40
And about the telegram 21.35 source is known. Order or telegram. Voronezh allowed to take.
So, what is the source, please ?
Maybe NARA. The author of the site did not indicate a source. Want to believe, he did not invent.

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".

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