von Bock and Voronej

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 14 Mar 2019 09:24

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:53
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:17
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:40
And about the telegram 21.35 source is known. Order or telegram. Voronezh allowed to take.
So, what is the source, please ?
Maybe NARA. The author of the site did not indicate a source. Want to believe, he did not invent.

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".
Your source http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
indicates that the 3rd Von Bock received the following order from Hitler :
"the task to take Voronej is over... do not take Voronej in any circumstances. If the ennmy comes with many forces, an exit out of Voronej and south of the Don is OK"

I wonder what is the source for this very interesting order. :milsmile:

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 10:17

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 09:24
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:53
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:17
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:40
And about the telegram 21.35 source is known. Order or telegram. Voronezh allowed to take.
So, what is the source, please ?
Maybe NARA. The author of the site did not indicate a source. Want to believe, he did not invent.

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".
Your source http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
indicates that the 3rd Von Bock received the following order from Hitler :
"the task to take Voronej is over... do not take Voronej in any circumstances. If the ennmy comes with many forces, an exit out of Voronej and south of the Don is OK"

I wonder what is the source for this very interesting order. :milsmile:
The author of the site copied Halder's words from diary and called it an order on July 3. Source - Halder's diary.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 14 Mar 2019 17:47

jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 10:17
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 09:24
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:53
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:17
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 21:40
And about the telegram 21.35 source is known. Order or telegram. Voronezh allowed to take.
So, what is the source, please ?
Maybe NARA. The author of the site did not indicate a source. Want to believe, he did not invent.

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".
Your source http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
indicates that the 3rd Von Bock received the following order from Hitler :
"the task to take Voronej is over... do not take Voronej in any circumstances. If the ennmy comes with many forces, an exit out of Voronej and south of the Don is OK"

I wonder what is the source for this very interesting order. :milsmile:
The author of the site copied Halder's words from diary and called it an order on July 3. Source - Halder's diary.
So, do you agree that the 3rd, VB was ordered to exit Voronej ?

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 19:14

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 17:47
jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 10:17
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 09:24
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:53
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:17


So, what is the source, please ?
Maybe NARA. The author of the site did not indicate a source. Want to believe, he did not invent.

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".
Your source http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
indicates that the 3rd Von Bock received the following order from Hitler :
"the task to take Voronej is over... do not take Voronej in any circumstances. If the ennmy comes with many forces, an exit out of Voronej and south of the Don is OK"

I wonder what is the source for this very interesting order. :milsmile:
The author of the site copied Halder's words from diary and called it an order on July 3. Source - Halder's diary.
So, do you agree that the 3rd, VB was ordered to exit Voronej ?
Not. He was allowed to take Voronezh, if this does not require a lot of stress. The author of the site designed words from Halder’s diary into an order on July 3. In this business.

DavidFrankenberg
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Location: Earth

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 14 Mar 2019 21:27

jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 19:14
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 17:47
jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 10:17
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 09:24
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 22:53

Maybe NARA. The author of the site did not indicate a source. Want to believe, he did not invent.

От группы армий "Юг" в 21.35 получена телеграмма следующего содержания: "Противник перед 6А и 4ТА разбит. 6А, преследуя противника, вышла на линию Валуйки, Николаевка (восточнее Буденный), русло Тихая Сосна и Дон до Гремящее (исключительно). При этом 40ТК в своем прежнем составе поворачивает на восток с задачей захватить в районе Острогожск и Коротояк предмостное укрепление через Тихая Сосна и тем самым обеспечить южный фланг 4ТА у Дона".
Your source http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
indicates that the 3rd Von Bock received the following order from Hitler :
"the task to take Voronej is over... do not take Voronej in any circumstances. If the ennmy comes with many forces, an exit out of Voronej and south of the Don is OK"

I wonder what is the source for this very interesting order. :milsmile:
The author of the site copied Halder's words from diary and called it an order on July 3. Source - Halder's diary.
So, do you agree that the 3rd, VB was ordered to exit Voronej ?
Not. He was allowed to take Voronezh, if this does not require a lot of stress. The author of the site designed words from Halder’s diary into an order on July 3. In this business.
Yourr own source is saying that Hitler ordered VB to exit from Voronej the 3d.
r

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 21:30

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 21:27
jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 19:14
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 17:47
jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 10:17
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
14 Mar 2019 09:24


Your source http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
indicates that the 3rd Von Bock received the following order from Hitler :
"the task to take Voronej is over... do not take Voronej in any circumstances. If the ennmy comes with many forces, an exit out of Voronej and south of the Don is OK"

I wonder what is the source for this very interesting order. :milsmile:
The author of the site copied Halder's words from diary and called it an order on July 3. Source - Halder's diary.
So, do you agree that the 3rd, VB was ordered to exit Voronej ?
Not. He was allowed to take Voronezh, if this does not require a lot of stress. The author of the site designed words from Halder’s diary into an order on July 3. In this business.
Yourr own source is saying that Hitler ordered VB to exit from Voronej the 3d.
r
my source quotes Halder and only

July 3, 1942, the 377th day of the war
Two ideas: pressure from the north is perfectly acceptable; relocation to the east.
1. To take Voronezh by no means under any circumstances. If it turns out that the enemy is advancing by large forces, then an exit to the Don south of Voronezh is sufficient. (According to reports, the industry of Voronezh is not dismantled.)
2. In the course of further operations, quick short breaks are needed in order to constantly neutralize the enemy in parts ...

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 14 Mar 2019 21:44

That means that VB had to withdraw from Voonej. And what did he do ?
He stayed 2 more days !
2 morre fatal days for Fall Blau !

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 22:01

Glantz argued, von Bock. As they considered, there were on that bases... a strange view of the events. David Glantz, do you hear? David Frankenberg understands better!
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Feb 2019 00:40
David Glantz in To the gates of Stalingrad p.156-166 advances a strange view of the events :

VB understood Hitler's order "not to strike Voronej at any cost" as "take Vorronej as soon as possible" ! That's why he felt obliged to use the used motor. div. ....

But what Glantz omits to say is that Hitler forbade to use motor. div. to strike Voronej... So could it be true that Hitler said to VB to take Voronej as soon as possible and to use motor. div. ? No, sir !

For Mr Glantz VB's disobedience is only an "apparent "disobedience'" whereas it is a clear disobedience.

Glantz doesnt talk much about 5th-9th july events. He just says that Hitler permitted VB to continue the occupation of Voronej while at the same time he tried to send the troops down the south.
Well, this is true that Hitler didnt dismiss VB the 5th july, neither especially ordered him to abandon Voronej that very day. But did it mean that Hitler agreed with VB occupation of Voronej ? I dont think so.
What was important in the eyes of Hitler was to send the motor. div. south in order to encircle the soviet troops. It is true that, as VB noted, it was too late... but it's not Hitler's fault but VB's one !

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 15 Mar 2019 06:40

Analysis of events shows that there were no prohibitions. When von Bock offered infantry divisions to encircle in the south, Hitler was furious and demanded panzer divisions. It takes time to replace some divisions with others. For an example, terms near Leningrad. Infantry divisions would have come faster, tanks are needed!

http://militera.lib.ru/db/leeb_vr/03.html

Monday, October 6, 1941

Leeb's personal notes in the notebook:

The Fuhrer decided to launch an offensive in the direction of Volkhovstroi not by the 39th Army Corps, but by infantry divisions. As a result, the next 14 days will go to regroup the forces ...

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 Mar 2019 15:03

jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 22:01
Glantz argued, von Bock. As they considered, there were on that bases... a strange view of the events. David Glantz, do you hear? David Frankenberg understands better!
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Feb 2019 00:40
David Glantz in To the gates of Stalingrad p.156-166 advances a strange view of the events :

VB understood Hitler's order "not to strike Voronej at any cost" as "take Vorronej as soon as possible" ! That's why he felt obliged to use the used motor. div. ....

But what Glantz omits to say is that Hitler forbade to use motor. div. to strike Voronej... So could it be true that Hitler said to VB to take Voronej as soon as possible and to use motor. div. ? No, sir !

For Mr Glantz VB's disobedience is only an "apparent "disobedience'" whereas it is a clear disobedience.

Glantz doesnt talk much about 5th-9th july events. He just says that Hitler permitted VB to continue the occupation of Voronej while at the same time he tried to send the troops down the south.
Well, this is true that Hitler didnt dismiss VB the 5th july, neither especially ordered him to abandon Voronej that very day. But did it mean that Hitler agreed with VB occupation of Voronej ? I dont think so.
What was important in the eyes of Hitler was to send the motor. div. south in order to encircle the soviet troops. It is true that, as VB noted, it was too late... but it's not Hitler's fault but VB's one !
I explain the problem of Glantz's view of the events.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 Mar 2019 15:05

jesk wrote:
15 Mar 2019 06:40
Analysis of events shows that there were no prohibitions. When von Bock offered infantry divisions to encircle in the south, Hitler was furious and demanded panzer divisions. It takes time to replace some divisions with others. For an example, terms near Leningrad. Infantry divisions would have come faster, tanks are needed!

http://militera.lib.ru/db/leeb_vr/03.html

Monday, October 6, 1941

Leeb's personal notes in the notebook:

The Fuhrer decided to launch an offensive in the direction of Volkhovstroi not by the 39th Army Corps, but by infantry divisions. As a result, the next 14 days will go to regroup the forces ...
You are talking about october 41.
We are talking here about july 42.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 15 Mar 2019 18:02

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
15 Mar 2019 15:03
jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 22:01
Glantz argued, von Bock. As they considered, there were on that bases... a strange view of the events. David Glantz, do you hear? David Frankenberg understands better!
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Feb 2019 00:40
David Glantz in To the gates of Stalingrad p.156-166 advances a strange view of the events :

VB understood Hitler's order "not to strike Voronej at any cost" as "take Vorronej as soon as possible" ! That's why he felt obliged to use the used motor. div. ....

But what Glantz omits to say is that Hitler forbade to use motor. div. to strike Voronej... So could it be true that Hitler said to VB to take Voronej as soon as possible and to use motor. div. ? No, sir !

For Mr Glantz VB's disobedience is only an "apparent "disobedience'" whereas it is a clear disobedience.

Glantz doesnt talk much about 5th-9th july events. He just says that Hitler permitted VB to continue the occupation of Voronej while at the same time he tried to send the troops down the south.
Well, this is true that Hitler didnt dismiss VB the 5th july, neither especially ordered him to abandon Voronej that very day. But did it mean that Hitler agreed with VB occupation of Voronej ? I dont think so.
What was important in the eyes of Hitler was to send the motor. div. south in order to encircle the soviet troops. It is true that, as VB noted, it was too late... but it's not Hitler's fault but VB's one !
I explain the problem of Glantz's view of the events.
No orders. This is just your logic from Halder's diary entries. Hitler said vague wishes and von Bock was later accused of failing to draw correct conclusions from words of the Fuhrer. Halder wrote about the fraud of Hoth, under the influence of which Bock fell. But not a fact.

Below 2 of your post with logic of order, which actually was not.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 Feb 2019 20:01
AbollonPolweder wrote:
10 Feb 2019 17:37
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
09 Feb 2019 11:09
VB had delayed the advance of arm. div. to the south in order to cover the attack on Voronej. Whereas he should not attack Voronej but just keep on going south.
Theoretically, you may be right, but the probability of this possibility is minimal. So vaguely "...going south..." orders are not given. Look at an example of the order of OKH of July 12, 1942
During the night came the Directive from the high command of the land forces on the continuation of the operation:
"Group of armies" B " (Bock) should move in the General direction to the mouth of the Donets, sending all available at its disposal mobile forces to Kamensk to join the battle with the enemy troops in the North of the Don and destroy them, attacking from the rear. The remaining forces of the army group should cover this maneuver from the threat from the East and contribute to the creation of conditions for an offensive in the direction of Stalingrad."
For such a definite order from OKH waited von Bock and he got it ... July 10. End of thriller "Disobedience of VB"! :(
The orders about Voronej were given the 3rd in Poltava during a meeting between OKW, OKH and VB.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Feb 2019 19:19
AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Feb 2019 15:21
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 Feb 2019 20:01
The orders about Voronej were given the 3rd in Poltava during a meeting between OKW, OKH and VB.
Are you saying that there were several orders? In this case, show at least one, please and I recognize your rightness.
You can read my very first post of this thread :thumbsup:

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 Mar 2019 18:20

jesk wrote:
15 Mar 2019 18:02
No orders. This is just your logic from Halder's diary entries. Hitler said vague wishes and von Bock was later accused of failing to draw correct conclusions from words of the Fuhrer. Halder wrote about the fraud of Hoth, under the influence of which Bock fell. But not a fact.
You are wrong. Hoth did not counterfeit anything. Von Bock faked Hoth's report in orrder to support his claim for having motor. div. in Voronej !

Hoth like Hitler like Halder knew that using tanks in Voronej was a waste !

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 15 Mar 2019 18:30

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
15 Mar 2019 18:20
Von Bock faked Hoth's report in orrder to support his claim for having motor. div. in Voronej !
long most to look for(долго самому искать), show a source

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 Mar 2019 19:26

Halder, 6 july "von Sodenstern refers to "slanted reports".

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