von Bock and Voronej

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 15:49

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:33
What are the diary supplemens ?
in the Russian edition published. in English, where I quoted, they are not.
You have better source than Halder's diary ?
It remains for you to appeal to Halder's authority. But I checked the words of Halder and there is nothing clear with the order of von Bock. Goth and Von Bock could choose from a variety of options. Hitler also talked a lot and this is criticized.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 15:56

FORBIN Yves wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:41
jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:38
On lexicon is not good. There may be data on June 1; operation began 28th. Quotes from the source about the operation "Blau" in the context more closely match.
Not agree and confirmed here 4 PZA have the XIII AK the 28/06
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... y_pz4.html
Maybe the compiler of the scheme about 85,000 in the 4th army was mistaken. But he corrected himself, specifying even the resubmission of 383th division on 28 June. :)

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -voronezha

Вспомогательный удар на Ливны наносили 45 и 95 пд и моторизованная бригада СС 55АК. Во втором эшелоне 383 пд, подчиненная с 28 июня 13АК 4ТА (для прикрытия правого фланга 55АК). Эту группировку с севера обеспечивала 299 пд. Им противостояли 132, 148 и 143 сд 13А.

Auxiliary strike on Livny was inflicted by 45 and 95 id and the motorized SS 55AK brigade. In the second echelon, 383 id, subordinated from June 28, 13AK 4TA (to cover the right flank 55AK). This grouping from the north provided 299 pd. They were opposed by 132, 148 and 143 rd 13A.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 861
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019 16:23

jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:49
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:33
What are the diary supplemens ?
in the Russian edition published. in English, where I quoted, they are not.
I have read your russian supplement.
Indeed, they did not contradict Halder's diary.
You have better source than Halder's diary ?
It remains for you to appeal to Halder's authority. But I checked the words of Halder and there is nothing clear with the order of von Bock. Goth and Von Bock could choose from a variety of options. Hitler also talked a lot and this is criticized.
The things are very clear.
the 3rd = soviet troops moved to Voronej. Voronej has not to be taken anymore. More precisely, it could be taken, but only if there is no soviet troops there, and only use the inf for that, prohibition to use motor. units for that.
the 4th = Hitler celebrates the fall of Sebastopol
the 5th = VB and Hoth disobeyed. They attacked Voronej whereas it was fortified and they ordered motor. troops to stay around Voronej instead going south to encircle soviet troops.
the 6th = Voronej is evacuated
the 7th = 23rd and 24th arm. div. are sent south at last !

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 16:37

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 16:23
The things are very clear.
the 3rd = soviet troops moved to Voronej. Voronej has not to be taken anymore. More precisely, it could be taken, but only if there is no soviet troops there,
The diary is an important clarification - if a large force arrives. But it is not said how to distinguish the small from the large.
and only use the inf for that, prohibition to use motor. units for that.
When is the prohibition? July 3, 5, 6 record. There every hour is important. Voronezh, remember, taken on July 7. There were no indications of prohibition on the advancement of tank units to Voronezh until July 5th.
the 5th = VB and Hoth disobeyed. They attacked Voronej whereas it was fortified and they ordered motor. troops to stay around Voronej instead going south to encircle soviet troops.
On July 3, at 21.35, they sent a telegram about moving to Voronezh. There were no objections. July 5th it turned out to be a mistake. Criticism in the diary only 16 and 23 divisions. GrD and 24 divisions could be sent to Voronezh.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Jan 2019 16:51

I will clarify when there was a reason to criticize von Bock. He and Hoth said that from the south the enemy is attacking with large forces and it is necessary to cover the flank. For this 16 and 23 divisions headed east. According to Halder, these were enemy tank units broken in battles. On the basis of this, there appeared words about meaningless progress towards Voronezh, when Hitler said that the city can not take.
Until Bock said about flank protection, there was no reason to criticize him. At the same time, the telegram on July 3 at 21.35 about plans to move the 16th and 23rd divisions to the east, did not raise any objections. Von Bock and without telegrams must understand what needs to be done.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 861
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019 19:24

You have to understand Hitler and his plan.
His plan was to reach Stalingrad.
He didnt care that much about Voronej.
VB didnt understand that. He thought he had to take Voronej whatever the cost.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 861
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019 19:26

jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 16:37
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 16:23
The things are very clear.
the 3rd = soviet troops moved to Voronej. Voronej has not to be taken anymore. More precisely, it could be taken, but only if there is no soviet troops there,
The diary is an important clarification - if a large force arrives. But it is not said how to distinguish the small from the large.
and only use the inf for that, prohibition to use motor. units for that.
When is the prohibition? July 3, 5, 6 record. There every hour is important. Voronezh, remember, taken on July 7. There were no indications of prohibition on the advancement of tank units to Voronezh until July 5th.
The 3rd.
the 5th = VB and Hoth disobeyed. They attacked Voronej whereas it was fortified and they ordered motor. troops to stay around Voronej instead going south to encircle soviet troops.
On July 3, at 21.35, they sent a telegram about moving to Voronezh. There were no objections. July 5th it turned out to be a mistake. Criticism in the diary only 16 and 23 divisions. GrD and 24 divisions could be sent to Voronezh.
They should not attack Voronej.
They did.
They disobeyed.

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 235
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 23 Jan 2019 21:50

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 13:47
...
Voronej was not taken by the Germans.
VB tried but failed.
Hitler's didnt order to take Voronej, he allowed to take it but only if it was free, if it didnt need a lot of german troops. He ordered arm. div. to go south.
VB not only tried to take Voronej whereas it was not empty, but he also prevented the arm. div. to go south.

That's why he was dismissed.

Hitle was right by guessing that the soviet troops were fleeing.
"Voronej was not taken by the Germans." Wellcome to "Groundhog Day"! :o
Let's read von Bock's diary:
" 5/7/42 ... In the afternoon, Halder informed Sodenstern that the Fuhrer was annoyed by the slow advance on the right wing. In his opinion, the 6th Army should have long ago captured beachheads on the other side of the Tichaj Sosna!
... The bridgeheads mentioned by the Führer have already been captured by us in the area of ​​Budyonny, Nikolaevka and Ostrogozhsk." :milwink:
" 6/7/42 ... The enemy is retreating on the entire northern front of the Weichs army group. They report to me that in several places the Russians are "fleeing". Almost simultaneously, news came that the enemy had begun to evacuate from Voronezh, and that during the night the battalion of the 24th Panzer Division had broken through the southern part of the city to the Voronezh River.
... The supreme command of the ground forces continues [466] to pressure me so that I release the units of the tank army located in Voronezh and to the north of it, and deploy them to the south. There is nothing to argue against this, but it all depends on how quickly the infantry approaches, which should change tank crews."
" 8/7/42 ... The advance units of the 23rd Panzer Division, directed north, reached the positions of XXXX tank corps. The “Great Germany” division, which also emanated from Voronezh, is already moving southward, while the 24th Panzer Division, chained to the site by exploded bridges and downpours, was unable to move earlier yesterday. In the morning, our troops repelled enemy attacks from the north in the direction of Voronezh. In the northern part of the city, several isolated centers of resistance of the enemy, who, apparently, did not have time to evacuate completely, continue to snarl with fire."
Blaming von Bock do not forget the old simple rule: audiatur and altera pars. It is quite possible that the Hitler used incomplete and outdated information.
Again: Voronezh was taken on July 6-7, 1942 and was freed on January 25, 1943. The Voronezh was fortified and defended ... by the Germans for more than half a year. The Soviet troops almost continuously attacked the city with huge bloody losses.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 861
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 02:33

AbollonPolweder wrote:
23 Jan 2019 21:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 13:47
...
Voronej was not taken by the Germans.
VB tried but failed.
Hitler's didnt order to take Voronej, he allowed to take it but only if it was free, if it didnt need a lot of german troops. He ordered arm. div. to go south.
VB not only tried to take Voronej whereas it was not empty, but he also prevented the arm. div. to go south.

That's why he was dismissed.

Hitle was right by guessing that the soviet troops were fleeing.
"Voronej was not taken by the Germans." Wellcome to "Groundhog Day"! :o
Let's read von Bock's diary:
" 5/7/42 ... In the afternoon, Halder informed Sodenstern that the Fuhrer was annoyed by the slow advance on the right wing. In his opinion, the 6th Army should have long ago captured beachheads on the other side of the Tichaj Sosna!
... The bridgeheads mentioned by the Führer have already been captured by us in the area of ​​Budyonny, Nikolaevka and Ostrogozhsk." :milwink:
" 6/7/42 ... The enemy is retreating on the entire northern front of the Weichs army group. They report to me that in several places the Russians are "fleeing". Almost simultaneously, news came that the enemy had begun to evacuate from Voronezh, and that during the night the battalion of the 24th Panzer Division had broken through the southern part of the city to the Voronezh River.
... The supreme command of the ground forces continues [466] to pressure me so that I release the units of the tank army located in Voronezh and to the north of it, and deploy them to the south. There is nothing to argue against this, but it all depends on how quickly the infantry approaches, which should change tank crews."
" 8/7/42 ... The advance units of the 23rd Panzer Division, directed north, reached the positions of XXXX tank corps. The “Great Germany” division, which also emanated from Voronezh, is already moving southward, while the 24th Panzer Division, chained to the site by exploded bridges and downpours, was unable to move earlier yesterday. In the morning, our troops repelled enemy attacks from the north in the direction of Voronezh. In the northern part of the city, several isolated centers of resistance of the enemy, who, apparently, did not have time to evacuate completely, continue to snarl with fire."
Blaming von Bock do not forget the old simple rule: audiatur and altera pars. It is quite possible that the Hitler used incomplete and outdated information.
Again: Voronezh was taken on July 6-7, 1942 and was freed on January 25, 1943. The Voronezh was fortified and defended ... by the Germans for more than half a year. The Soviet troops almost continuously attacked the city with huge bloody losses.
Voronej was important for the soviets because of the railroads. The only interest in taking Voronej was to cut the railroad track.
The Germans did not occupy the whole city. They let the railroad trafic free for the soviets. That was like they were not in the city indeed.

Boby
Member
Posts: 2574
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by Boby » 24 Jan 2019 17:50

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:33
jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 14:06
Halder's diary. In the English version, the diary supplements are published differently.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Image
What are the diary supplemens ?
Postwar comments by Halder in the published edition of the KTB. Quite useless.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 19:09

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 19:26
jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 16:37
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 16:23
The things are very clear.
the 3rd = soviet troops moved to Voronej. Voronej has not to be taken anymore. More precisely, it could be taken, but only if there is no soviet troops there,
The diary is an important clarification - if a large force arrives. But it is not said how to distinguish the small from the large.
and only use the inf for that, prohibition to use motor. units for that.
When is the prohibition? July 3, 5, 6 record. There every hour is important. Voronezh, remember, taken on July 7. There were no indications of prohibition on the advancement of tank units to Voronezh until July 5th.
The 3rd.
the 5th = VB and Hoth disobeyed. They attacked Voronej whereas it was fortified and they ordered motor. troops to stay around Voronej instead going south to encircle soviet troops.
On July 3, at 21.35, they sent a telegram about moving to Voronezh. There were no objections. July 5th it turned out to be a mistake. Criticism in the diary only 16 and 23 divisions. GrD and 24 divisions could be sent to Voronezh.
They should not attack Voronej.
They did.
They disobeyed.
Finally, I understood the logic. Hoth considered the task of taking Voronezh difficult and falsified intelligence in order to get more troops from von Bock. He once again fell under the influence of the army commanders ...
But what are the consequences of disobeying? Halder and wrote about it, we overestimate the enemy. On the environment of the remnants of enemy troops, during the retreat throwing artillery and other weapons, 3 armies were thrown. A week later, the situation repeated. Halder protested against the excessive number of forces allocated by Hitler to the encirclement of the Southern Front.
2 operations in the area of ​​Millerovo and Rostov for the military were obviously able to handle fewer forces.
You have to understand Hitler and his plan.
His plan was to reach Stalingrad.
He didnt care that much about Voronej.
VB didnt understand that. He thought he had to take Voronej whatever the cost.
About Stalingrad in July 1942, Hitler forgot. All sources criticize him precisely for weakening the Stalingrad direction. At any cost, Hitler sought to take Rostov, despite the protests, for example, Halder.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 19:16

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 02:33
AbollonPolweder wrote:
23 Jan 2019 21:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 13:47
...
Voronej was not taken by the Germans.
VB tried but failed.
Hitler's didnt order to take Voronej, he allowed to take it but only if it was free, if it didnt need a lot of german troops. He ordered arm. div. to go south.
VB not only tried to take Voronej whereas it was not empty, but he also prevented the arm. div. to go south.

That's why he was dismissed.

Hitle was right by guessing that the soviet troops were fleeing.
"Voronej was not taken by the Germans." Wellcome to "Groundhog Day"! :o
Let's read von Bock's diary:
" 5/7/42 ... In the afternoon, Halder informed Sodenstern that the Fuhrer was annoyed by the slow advance on the right wing. In his opinion, the 6th Army should have long ago captured beachheads on the other side of the Tichaj Sosna!
... The bridgeheads mentioned by the Führer have already been captured by us in the area of ​​Budyonny, Nikolaevka and Ostrogozhsk." :milwink:
" 6/7/42 ... The enemy is retreating on the entire northern front of the Weichs army group. They report to me that in several places the Russians are "fleeing". Almost simultaneously, news came that the enemy had begun to evacuate from Voronezh, and that during the night the battalion of the 24th Panzer Division had broken through the southern part of the city to the Voronezh River.
... The supreme command of the ground forces continues [466] to pressure me so that I release the units of the tank army located in Voronezh and to the north of it, and deploy them to the south. There is nothing to argue against this, but it all depends on how quickly the infantry approaches, which should change tank crews."
" 8/7/42 ... The advance units of the 23rd Panzer Division, directed north, reached the positions of XXXX tank corps. The “Great Germany” division, which also emanated from Voronezh, is already moving southward, while the 24th Panzer Division, chained to the site by exploded bridges and downpours, was unable to move earlier yesterday. In the morning, our troops repelled enemy attacks from the north in the direction of Voronezh. In the northern part of the city, several isolated centers of resistance of the enemy, who, apparently, did not have time to evacuate completely, continue to snarl with fire."
Blaming von Bock do not forget the old simple rule: audiatur and altera pars. It is quite possible that the Hitler used incomplete and outdated information.
Again: Voronezh was taken on July 6-7, 1942 and was freed on January 25, 1943. The Voronezh was fortified and defended ... by the Germans for more than half a year. The Soviet troops almost continuously attacked the city with huge bloody losses.
Voronej was important for the soviets because of the railroads. The only interest in taking Voronej was to cut the railroad track.
The Germans did not occupy the whole city. They let the railroad trafic free for the soviets. That was like they were not in the city indeed.
Voronezh is a large city with a population of 400 thousand. Of course, not only the railroad is important. So that the enemy could not use the city as a springboard for a counterattack. Many sources in network confirms the seizure of the city on July 7. Separate pockets, as Von Bock wrote, are suppressed a day later.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 19:17

Boby wrote:
24 Jan 2019 17:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:33
jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 14:06
Halder's diary. In the English version, the diary supplements are published differently.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Image
What are the diary supplemens ?
Postwar comments by Halder in the published edition of the KTB. Quite useless.
Appendices to the diary, not necessarily after the war, maybe the next Halder noted important.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 861
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 19:51

jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:16
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 02:33
AbollonPolweder wrote:
23 Jan 2019 21:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 13:47
...
Voronej was not taken by the Germans.
VB tried but failed.
Hitler's didnt order to take Voronej, he allowed to take it but only if it was free, if it didnt need a lot of german troops. He ordered arm. div. to go south.
VB not only tried to take Voronej whereas it was not empty, but he also prevented the arm. div. to go south.

That's why he was dismissed.

Hitle was right by guessing that the soviet troops were fleeing.
"Voronej was not taken by the Germans." Wellcome to "Groundhog Day"! :o
Let's read von Bock's diary:
" 5/7/42 ... In the afternoon, Halder informed Sodenstern that the Fuhrer was annoyed by the slow advance on the right wing. In his opinion, the 6th Army should have long ago captured beachheads on the other side of the Tichaj Sosna!
... The bridgeheads mentioned by the Führer have already been captured by us in the area of ​​Budyonny, Nikolaevka and Ostrogozhsk." :milwink:
" 6/7/42 ... The enemy is retreating on the entire northern front of the Weichs army group. They report to me that in several places the Russians are "fleeing". Almost simultaneously, news came that the enemy had begun to evacuate from Voronezh, and that during the night the battalion of the 24th Panzer Division had broken through the southern part of the city to the Voronezh River.
... The supreme command of the ground forces continues [466] to pressure me so that I release the units of the tank army located in Voronezh and to the north of it, and deploy them to the south. There is nothing to argue against this, but it all depends on how quickly the infantry approaches, which should change tank crews."
" 8/7/42 ... The advance units of the 23rd Panzer Division, directed north, reached the positions of XXXX tank corps. The “Great Germany” division, which also emanated from Voronezh, is already moving southward, while the 24th Panzer Division, chained to the site by exploded bridges and downpours, was unable to move earlier yesterday. In the morning, our troops repelled enemy attacks from the north in the direction of Voronezh. In the northern part of the city, several isolated centers of resistance of the enemy, who, apparently, did not have time to evacuate completely, continue to snarl with fire."
Blaming von Bock do not forget the old simple rule: audiatur and altera pars. It is quite possible that the Hitler used incomplete and outdated information.
Again: Voronezh was taken on July 6-7, 1942 and was freed on January 25, 1943. The Voronezh was fortified and defended ... by the Germans for more than half a year. The Soviet troops almost continuously attacked the city with huge bloody losses.
Voronej was important for the soviets because of the railroads. The only interest in taking Voronej was to cut the railroad track.
The Germans did not occupy the whole city. They let the railroad trafic free for the soviets. That was like they were not in the city indeed.
Voronezh is a large city with a population of 400 thousand. Of course, not only the railroad is important. So that the enemy could not use the city as a springboard for a counterattack. Many sources in network confirms the seizure of the city on July 7. Separate pockets, as Von Bock wrote, are suppressed a day later.
The Germans were still fighting the 13th july in the suburbs.
They never totally controlled the city, like in Stalingrad indeed.

Boby
Member
Posts: 2574
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by Boby » 24 Jan 2019 20:04

jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:17
Boby wrote:
24 Jan 2019 17:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Jan 2019 15:33
jesk wrote:
23 Jan 2019 14:06
Halder's diary. In the English version, the diary supplements are published differently.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Image
What are the diary supplemens ?
Postwar comments by Halder in the published edition of the KTB. Quite useless.
Appendices to the diary, not necessarily after the war, maybe the next Halder noted important.
Not necessarily? :roll:

All post-war. That's the reason they were not in the english translation.

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”