von Bock and Voronej

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 21 Mar 2019 11:38

jesk wrote:
21 Mar 2019 05:48
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.
All sources were quoted.

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 21 Mar 2019 16:36

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 23:02
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 21 Mar 2019 19:29

AbollonPolweder wrote:
21 Mar 2019 16:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 23:02
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 22 Mar 2019 08:40

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 11:38
jesk wrote:
21 Mar 2019 05:48
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.
All sources were quoted.
Von Bock denied the existence of orders. And July 3, 1942 and March 22, 1943. In fact, you call von Bock a pathological liar. The orders of Hitler are absolutely clear, do not insist on the capture of Voronezh. He pretended that the Führer did not order anything...
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
jesk wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:51
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:26
VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
And von Bock clearly wrote that he is free in the right to move to Voronezh.
Even Glantz understood that there was something fishy in VB's diary.
I doubt that this is so. Another critical comment in unison with the previously voiced thesis. Nothing new. You have to understand, von Bock and Voronezh are the most difficult case for proving the disobedience of generals. Me and von Bock we denied all charges! Halder came up with, Hitler repeated. It is such a consistent chain.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 22 Mar 2019 08:47

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 19:29
AbollonPolweder wrote:
21 Mar 2019 16:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 23:02
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 22 Mar 2019 14:54

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 19:29
...
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
So if I' m not wrong, this is your personally purely logical conclusion. Right?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 22 Mar 2019 16:59

jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 08:47
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 19:29
AbollonPolweder wrote:
21 Mar 2019 16:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 23:02
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.
We are not talking about Rostov here, but about Voronej.

ps: Hitler could not disobey Halder, Hitler was the Fürher, not Halder.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 22 Mar 2019 17:00

AbollonPolweder wrote:
22 Mar 2019 14:54
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 19:29
...
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
So if I' m not wrong, this is your personally purely logical conclusion. Right?
Following existing sources. Yes.

DavidFrankenberg
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Posts: 698
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 22 Mar 2019 17:14

jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 08:40
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 11:38
jesk wrote:
21 Mar 2019 05:48
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.
All sources were quoted.
Von Bock denied the existence of orders. And July 3, 1942 and March 22, 1943. In fact, you call von Bock a pathological liar.
VB didnt like Hitler. Among generals he was not the most pronazi one. Some say he was antinazi.
It is possible that he did what he thought was good, neglecting Hitler's thoughts. But doing this, he disobeyed, and that's why he was dismissed soon after that episode.

The orders of Hitler are absolutely clear, do not insist on the capture of Voronezh. He pretended that the Führer did not order anything...
Well, there is a problem if the Fürher do not order anything...
At the best there is a big misunderstanding, like Glantz says.
Or, at the worst, VB perfectly understood but absolutely didnt want to do like Hitler wanted.

jesk wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:51
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:26
VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
And von Bock clearly wrote that he is free in the right to move to Voronezh.
VB was free to do whatever he wanted ! He could even order a retreat if he wanted to...
Whatever he did was not the Hitler's will.
Hitler didnt want to spend time and use motor. div. in Voronej, he said it, but VB disobeyed.
Even Glantz understood that there was something fishy in VB's diary.
I doubt that this is so. Another critical comment in unison with the previously voiced thesis. Nothing new. You have to understand, von Bock and Voronezh are the most difficult case for proving the disobedience of generals. Me and von Bock we denied all charges! Halder came up with, Hitler repeated. It is such a consistent chain.
VB was not fond of nazism and the hitlerian régime. His dismissal should not have depressed him a lot...
VB probably didnt care about Hitler's strategy in Fall Blau and just did what he thought was good to do.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 22 Mar 2019 18:34

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 17:14
Hitler didnt want to spend time and use motor. div. in Voronej, he said it, but VB disobeyed.
From an excursion about von Bock's alleged anti-Nazism, highlighting his disobedience again. There must be clear orders. Do not force the river Don on the way to Voronezh. Only in this case could the motorized divisions quickly turn to the south without fear of the enemy’s counterstrike. Otherwise, it took time to replace some divisions with others. Without a categorical order, the probability of misunderstanding of Hitler's thoughts was too high. 2 months planned seizure of Voronezh. Voronezh is designated by the plan "Blau" obligatory for execution. After 2 months, from Hitler's reasoning, von Bock could not understand the importance of 48 hours for the entire operation. Moreover, he had no chance to allocate such a short period for the significance of “Blau”. The enemy is hopelessly weak, broken in all directions. And what have 48 hours !?

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 22 Mar 2019 18:45

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 16:59
jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 08:47
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 19:29
AbollonPolweder wrote:
21 Mar 2019 16:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 23:02
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.
We are not talking about Rostov here, but about Voronej.

ps: Hitler could not disobey Halder, Hitler was the Fürher, not Halder.
We are talking about the causes of Blau’s downfall. The orders of Hitler to direct all motorized divisions to Rostov, could have a much greater influence than the "disobedience" of von Bock with Voronezh.
Why should I choose Halder from two diaries? I have as evidence diary von Bock. He denies all charges. And I believe him.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 22 Mar 2019 19:56

jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 18:34
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 17:14
Hitler didnt want to spend time and use motor. div. in Voronej, he said it, but VB disobeyed.
From an excursion about von Bock's alleged anti-Nazism, highlighting his disobedience again. There must be clear orders. Do not force the river Don on the way to Voronezh. Only in this case could the motorized divisions quickly turn to the south without fear of the enemy’s counterstrike. Otherwise, it took time to replace some divisions with others. Without a categorical order, the probability of misunderstanding of Hitler's thoughts was too high. 2 months planned seizure of Voronezh. Voronezh is designated by the plan "Blau" obligatory for execution. After 2 months, from Hitler's reasoning, von Bock could not understand the importance of 48 hours for the entire operation. Moreover, he had no chance to allocate such a short period for the significance of “Blau”. The enemy is hopelessly weak, broken in all directions. And what have 48 hours !?
Hitler didnt want to strike Voronej. VB absolutely wanted to take it. Hitler didnt want to use motor. div. VB wanted to use it in Voronej. Hitler didnt want to spend more than 24h there, VB allowed himself 3 days and even more...

The events showed Hitler was right and VB was wrong.
This is history.

Hitler had hard time sith some generals.... VB was one of them.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 22 Mar 2019 20:02

jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 18:45
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 16:59
jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 08:47
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 19:29
AbollonPolweder wrote:
21 Mar 2019 16:36

Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.
We are not talking about Rostov here, but about Voronej.

ps: Hitler could not disobey Halder, Hitler was the Fürher, not Halder.
We are talking about the causes of Blau’s downfall. The orders of Hitler to direct all motorized divisions to Rostov, could have a much greater influence than the "disobedience" of von Bock with Voronezh.
Why should I choose Halder from two diaries? I have as evidence diary von Bock. He denies all charges. And I believe him.
We are dealing with VB's responsability in the failed attack on Voronej which induced the subsequent failure of Fall Blau.
You dont have to choose one diary and neglect the other, but to read both and make up your mind. From all testimonies, we can conclude that Hitler's plan was countered by some of his general's plan, VB.
Some wd reproach Hitler his laziness regarding VB's insolence. He wd have listened only himself, he would have succeeded.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Mar 2019 05:39

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 20:02
We are dealing with VB's responsability in the failed attack on Voronej which induced the subsequent failure of Fall Blau.
I at least do not agree with the logic of the fall of “Blau” because of the attack on Voronezh. After there was an attack on Rostov, and this particular episode took much more than 48 hours. Halder challenged decision of the Fuhrer. As a percentage in the fall of Blau, Voronezh may be 3%, Rostov 50%. The connection between von Bock and fall of Blau simply does not exist.
You dont have to choose one diary and neglect the other, but to read both and make up your mind. From all testimonies, we can conclude that Hitler's plan was countered by some of his general's plan, VB.
Von Bock in his diary showed that there was no plan of Hitler. He simply allowed not to take Voronezh, if resistance of enemy will be particularly strong.
Hitler didnt want to strike Voronej. VB absolutely wanted to take it. Hitler didnt want to use motor. div. VB wanted to use it in Voronej. Hitler didnt want to spend more than 24h there, VB allowed himself 3 days and even more...
Between words Voronezh can be not taken if resistance of the opponent is strong and the ban to take Voronezh a big difference. You again ignore the indication of lies and repeat nonsense. In the diary there is no hint of orders. Von Bock lies?

http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/19.html

3/7/42
The Fuhrer arrived at 07.00; despite the fact that he had to leave his headquarters around 04.00, he was very lively and complacent. He confirmed what Halder told me yesterday, and gave me the freedom to abandon the capture of Voronezh in the event that on the approaches to the city our troops meet especially fierce resistance. He wants only one thing: that large aviation factories located in the city, as well as huge depot and other railway structures, will be disabled. He will not mind if the 4th Army, for example, goes to Don south of the city.
We discussed the groundwork of the Supreme Command of the ground forces we received during the night regarding future operations. They even considered the idea of ​​conducting “Blau” operations by infantry forces in order to avoid wasting time. I indicated that such a method would not allow for the encirclement of an adversary who had recently learned something. Under such conditions [457], the enemy will be on time out of the blow, which he is already trying to do, but not always successfully, throughout this year. In this regard, it is extremely important that we attack as quickly as possible with the connection of mobile forces and hit the enemy behind the Aydar River, for which he may begin to retreat as soon as he realizes that they are trying to get around the flanks. The Fuhrer agreed.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 23 Mar 2019 06:28

There are a lot of mistakes in your posts. Actually accused von Bock of a lie. Then probably having understood the "unscientific" of such approach, again assumed no contradiction between sources. The interval of 24 hours logically occurs from both diaries..
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen, just make sure to destroy military factories and railroads.
jesk wrote:
22 Mar 2019 08:40
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Mar 2019 11:38
jesk wrote:
21 Mar 2019 05:48
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.
All sources were quoted.
Von Bock denied the existence of orders. And July 3, 1942 and March 22, 1943. In fact, you call von Bock a pathological liar. The orders of Hitler are absolutely clear, do not insist on the capture of Voronezh. He pretended that the Führer did not order anything...
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 19:56
Hitler didnt want to strike Voronej. VB absolutely wanted to take it. Hitler didnt want to use motor. div. VB wanted to use it in Voronej. Hitler didnt want to spend more than 24h there, VB allowed himself 3 days and even more...
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
22 Mar 2019 20:02
You dont have to choose one diary and neglect the other, but to read both and make up your mind. From all testimonies, we can conclude that Hitler's plan was countered by some of his general's plan, VB.

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