von Bock and Voronej

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 20:08

jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:09
Finally, I understood the logic. Hoth considered the task of taking Voronezh difficult and falsified intelligence in order to get more troops from von Bock. He once again fell under the influence of the army commanders ...
We have only the Halder's vision of the events.
VB wrote a diary too, but because Halder wrote it day after day, it is the more accurate source we could have.

This is how Halder describes the events : Hoth was ordered by VB to strike Voronej. But Hoth feared the concentration of troops in the city. That's why he asked for support from Weichs. That was the failure of VB.
Surely VB wanted to stuck to the initial plan (strike Voronej), he didnt listen to Hitler who didnt want anymore to strike it. VB smuggled, he counterfeited reports in order to get Hitler' support.
But what are the consequences of disobeying?

The consequence is clear : VB is responsible of the useless losses in Voronej, is responsible of the delay in encircling soviet armies in the south. VB is somewhere responsible of the failure of Fall Blau.
About Stalingrad in July 1942, Hitler forgot. All sources criticize him precisely for weakening the Stalingrad direction. At any cost, Hitler sought to take Rostov, despite the protests, for example, Halder.
The problem is that Hitler could not trust his generals and his marshalls. They were reluctant to execute Hitler's plan. How do you want Fall Blau to be welle executed since Hitler had a resistance inside his own HQ ?

After VB's disobedience Hitler had to check personnally everything on the front... it was a huge task... he could not sleep enough... he could not focus anymore on the strategy as a Leader should have done...

And there it is, you have the big failure of Fall Blau.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 20:09

Boby wrote:
24 Jan 2019 20:04


Postwar comments by Halder in the published edition of the KTB. Quite useless.
I agree with you on that point.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 21:24

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:51
The Germans were still fighting the 13th july in the suburbs.
They never totally controlled the city, like in Stalingrad indeed.
July 11, by counterattack repelled the stadium and the park. This may be 2% of the city. The rest is under German control.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -voronezha
11.7.1942г.
40А частью сил выбила подразделения противника из стадиона и парка на северо-восточной окраине Воронежа, остальная часть города, по донесению командующего Воронежским фронтом от 11.7.42г. № 003, была занята противником. В боях за Воронеж с 3 июля действовало до 2 танковых и 2 моторизованных дивизий противника. Противник продолжал переправу танков, артиллерии и пехоты на вост. берег р.Дон в районах Стар. Семилуки и Семилуки.

40A part of the forces knocked out enemy units from the stadium and the park on the northeastern outskirts of Voronezh, the rest of the city, according to the report of the commander of the Voronezh Front of 11.7.42. Number 003, was occupied by the enemy. In the battles for Voronezh, from July 3, up to 2 tank and 2 motorized enemy divisions operated. The enemy continued the crossing of tanks, artillery and infantry to the east. Bank r.Dona in areas Star. Semiluki and Semiluki.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 21:36

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 20:08
The consequence is clear : VB is responsible of the useless losses in Voronej, is responsible of the delay in encircling soviet armies in the south. VB is somewhere responsible of the failure of Fall Blau.
Losses in Voronezh were not vain. In 2 days Germans took the big city and it is good for them. Von Bock offered Hitler infantry divisions for an environment, the Fuhrer trusted tanks more. Because of it the Soviet troops left an environment. Tank divisions could not create such density in defense as infantry. In tank divisions there are less infantry and artillery and the Russians leaving an environment used it. The theory of blitzkrieg says. The motorized divisions surround, hand over positions to infantry divisions and those finish extermination of the enemy.
The problem is that Hitler could not trust his generals and his marshalls. They were reluctant to execute Hitler's plan. How do you want Fall Blau to be welle executed since Hitler had a resistance inside his own HQ ?

After VB's disobedience Hitler had to check personnally everything on the front... it was a huge task... he could not sleep enough... he could not focus anymore on the strategy as a Leader should have done...

And there it is, you have the big failure of Fall Blau.
Hitler continued to be mistaken again and again. And in 1945 its actions were sharply criticized. As for Hitler's thinking, it violently worked until the end of war to the detriment of Germans.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 21:36

jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:24
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:51
The Germans were still fighting the 13th july in the suburbs.
They never totally controlled the city, like in Stalingrad indeed.
July 11, by counterattack repelled the stadium and the park. This may be 2% of the city. The rest is under German control.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -voronezha
11.7.1942г.
40А частью сил выбила подразделения противника из стадиона и парка на северо-восточной окраине Воронежа, остальная часть города, по донесению командующего Воронежским фронтом от 11.7.42г. № 003, была занята противником. В боях за Воронеж с 3 июля действовало до 2 танковых и 2 моторизованных дивизий противника. Противник продолжал переправу танков, артиллерии и пехоты на вост. берег р.Дон в районах Стар. Семилуки и Семилуки.

40A part of the forces knocked out enemy units from the stadium and the park on the northeastern outskirts of Voronezh, the rest of the city, according to the report of the commander of the Voronezh Front of 11.7.42. Number 003, was occupied by the enemy. In the battles for Voronezh, from July 3, up to 2 tank and 2 motorized enemy divisions operated. The enemy continued the crossing of tanks, artillery and infantry to the east. Bank r.Dona in areas Star. Semiluki and Semiluki.
The 13th they were still fighting in the suburbs.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 21:41

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:36
jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:24
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:51
The Germans were still fighting the 13th july in the suburbs.
They never totally controlled the city, like in Stalingrad indeed.
July 11, by counterattack repelled the stadium and the park. This may be 2% of the city. The rest is under German control.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -voronezha
11.7.1942г.
40А частью сил выбила подразделения противника из стадиона и парка на северо-восточной окраине Воронежа, остальная часть города, по донесению командующего Воронежским фронтом от 11.7.42г. № 003, была занята противником. В боях за Воронеж с 3 июля действовало до 2 танковых и 2 моторизованных дивизий противника. Противник продолжал переправу танков, артиллерии и пехоты на вост. берег р.Дон в районах Стар. Семилуки и Семилуки.

40A part of the forces knocked out enemy units from the stadium and the park on the northeastern outskirts of Voronezh, the rest of the city, according to the report of the commander of the Voronezh Front of 11.7.42. Number 003, was occupied by the enemy. In the battles for Voronezh, from July 3, up to 2 tank and 2 motorized enemy divisions operated. The enemy continued the crossing of tanks, artillery and infantry to the east. Bank r.Dona in areas Star. Semiluki and Semiluki.
The 13th they were still fighting in the suburbs.
Fights on the area of 1-2% of the city rather symbolical fights. Germans strongly kept Voronezh!

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 21:45

jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 20:08
The consequence is clear : VB is responsible of the useless losses in Voronej, is responsible of the delay in encircling soviet armies in the south. VB is somewhere responsible of the failure of Fall Blau.
Losses in Voronezh were not vain. In 2 days Germans took the big city
They never took the entirety of Voronej city.
and it is good for them.
Go south and encircle soviet troops was better for them.
Von Bock offered Hitler infantry divisions for an environment, the Fuhrer trusted tanks more. Because of it the Soviet troops left an environment. Tank divisions could not create such density in defense as infantry. In tank divisions there are less infantry and artillery and the Russians leaving an environment used it. The theory of blitzkrieg says. The motorized divisions surround, hand over positions to infantry divisions and those finish extermination of the enemy.
Taking a city is never fast. Tanks are not the best weapons to take a city.
It was true in Voronej, it was true in Stalingrad.
The problem is that Hitler could not trust his generals and his marshalls. They were reluctant to execute Hitler's plan. How do you want Fall Blau to be welle executed since Hitler had a resistance inside his own HQ ?

After VB's disobedience Hitler had to check personnally everything on the front... it was a huge task... he could not sleep enough... he could not focus anymore on the strategy as a Leader should have done...

And there it is, you have the big failure of Fall Blau.
Hitler continued to be mistaken again and again. And in 1945 its actions were sharply criticized. As for Hitler's thinking, it violently worked until the end of war to the detriment of Germans.
Hitler was right concerning Voronej's case : its has not to be taken.
In many points, he was right. Unfortunately, he was not obeyed.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 21:47

jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:41
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:36
jesk wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:24
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 19:51
The Germans were still fighting the 13th july in the suburbs.
They never totally controlled the city, like in Stalingrad indeed.
July 11, by counterattack repelled the stadium and the park. This may be 2% of the city. The rest is under German control.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -voronezha
11.7.1942г.
40А частью сил выбила подразделения противника из стадиона и парка на северо-восточной окраине Воронежа, остальная часть города, по донесению командующего Воронежским фронтом от 11.7.42г. № 003, была занята противником. В боях за Воронеж с 3 июля действовало до 2 танковых и 2 моторизованных дивизий противника. Противник продолжал переправу танков, артиллерии и пехоты на вост. берег р.Дон в районах Стар. Семилуки и Семилуки.

40A part of the forces knocked out enemy units from the stadium and the park on the northeastern outskirts of Voronezh, the rest of the city, according to the report of the commander of the Voronezh Front of 11.7.42. Number 003, was occupied by the enemy. In the battles for Voronezh, from July 3, up to 2 tank and 2 motorized enemy divisions operated. The enemy continued the crossing of tanks, artillery and infantry to the east. Bank r.Dona in areas Star. Semiluki and Semiluki.
The 13th they were still fighting in the suburbs.
Fights on the area of 1-2% of the city rather symbolical fights. Germans strongly kept Voronezh!
They were still fighting to control the whole area.
Reading you about the fall of Voronej is like listening to Dietrich spoking about the fall of Stalingrad which never happened.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 24 Jan 2019 21:52

Millerovo pocket. Even on the map visible what it is small. Von Bock would never begin to be engaged in such nonsense. Scales of Wehrmacht huge coppers of the size half-Russia.
Hitler's orders are senseless, except sabotage.

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 24 Jan 2019 23:28

Millerovo is far away from Voronej.
Germans would have been in Millerovo a long time before if VB had obeyed Hitler ! And maybe they wd have won the war.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Jan 2019 07:17

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:45
They never took the entirety of Voronej city.
Can you read? I gave text of order of the commander of the Voronezh Front about complete capture of Voronezh by the Germans.
Go south and encircle soviet troops was better for them.
More time spent on the environment than during the pursuit.
Taking a city is never fast. Tanks are not the best weapons to take a city.
It was true in Voronej, it was true in Stalingrad.
The comparison of Voronezh with Stalingrad is inappropriate. The Germans quickly captured Voronezh, but the front line passed near the city and at times Soviet troops counterattacked. For example, on July 11, they beat off the stadium and the park, establishing control over 2% of the city.
Hitler was right concerning Voronej's case : its has not to be taken.
In many points, he was right. Unfortunately, he was not obeyed.
No order not to take Voronezh, only if there are no big forces.
They were still fighting to control the whole area.
Reading you about the fall of Voronej is like listening to Dietrich spoking about the fall of Stalingrad which never happened.
What are your sources? If the front line is on the border of the city, enemy attacks are possible.
Millerovo is far away from Voronej.
Germans would have been in Millerovo a long time before if VB had obeyed Hitler ! And maybe they wd have won the war.
On the map, meaningless traffic from the northeast to the city is noticeable. Infantry divisions of the 6th army were closer, but Hitler ordered them to replace the tank in the area of ​​Voronezh. Without tank divisions, defeat of the remnants of Tymoshenko’s armies was completed faster.
GrD and 24th in any case appeared near Voronezh. Them were ordered to go to the Don, only then other orders. Criticism concerned 16 and 23 divisions.

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jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Jan 2019 16:49

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Jan 2019 20:25
Hi,
von Bock was dismissed after he disobeyed and tried to take Voronej with a lot of troops, especially the 24th arm. div and Grossdeutschland division. This try delayed the moves of those armored divisions and prevented the encirclment of soviet troops in the south.
This could be read in Halder's diary :
3 July
At the front of Heeresgruppe Mitte, the enemy appears to be dragging off forces from the front of the 2. Panzer-Armee to the Voronezh region. Operation "Seidlits" is developing very slowly.
To take Voronezh by no means under any circumstances.
5th july
the Führer himself at the conference made it emphatically clear' that he did not attach any particular importance to Voronej and left it to the judgment of army Gp that objective go if it could be had only at great cost, von Bock tolerated Hoth' senseless rush for Voronezh and even encouraged it.
'great cost' how much is this?

Once again, the accusations against von Bock are Halder's fantasies. What was thought up by Halder.
1. Von Bock did not want to go to Voronezh by large forces.
2. Hoth tricked von Bock to gain more forces.
Four divisions are few forces, that they became big, Halder thought up to Bock and Hoth their thoughts.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Jan 2019 17:05

Having ordered to expect divisions from near Voronezh, Hitler stopped the offensive of 5 army corps. They easily and quickly smeared remnants of the enemy. It's even funny, the Germans attacked the empty space.

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 25 Jan 2019 21:01

jesk wrote:
25 Jan 2019 07:17
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:45
They never took the entirety of Voronej city.
Can you read? I gave text of order of the commander of the Voronezh Front about complete capture of Voronezh by the Germans.
I already answered to that. Buildings have no value. Railroad has big value.
Go south and encircle soviet troops was better for them.
More time spent on the environment than during the pursuit.
More soviets troops captured and the closer to Stalingrad they would have been.
Taking a city is never fast. Tanks are not the best weapons to take a city.
It was true in Voronej, it was true in Stalingrad.
The comparison of Voronezh with Stalingrad is inappropriate. The Germans quickly captured Voronezh, but the front line passed near the city and at times Soviet troops counterattacked. For example, on July 11, they beat off the stadium and the park, establishing control over 2% of the city.
Like in Stalingrad, the Germans never controled the whole city.
Hitler was right concerning Voronej's case : its has not to be taken.
In many points, he was right. Unfortunately, he was not obeyed.
No order not to take Voronezh, only if there are no big forces.
AND not to use motor. div.
VB disobeyed.
They were still fighting to control the whole area.
Reading you about the fall of Voronej is like listening to Dietrich spoking about the fall of Stalingrad which never happened.
What are your sources? If the front line is on the border of the city, enemy attacks are possible.
Sources for what ?
Millerovo is far away from Voronej.
Germans would have been in Millerovo a long time before if VB had obeyed Hitler ! And maybe they wd have won the war.
On the map, meaningless traffic from the northeast to the city is noticeable. Infantry divisions of the 6th army were closer, but Hitler ordered them to replace the tank in the area of ​​Voronezh. Without tank divisions, defeat of the remnants of Tymoshenko’s armies was completed faster.
GrD and 24th in any case appeared near Voronezh. Them were ordered to go to the Don, only then other orders. Criticism concerned 16 and 23 divisions.
Soviet troops wd have been encircled in the south by the arm. div. that have been immobilized in Voronej.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 25 Jan 2019 21:05

jesk wrote:
25 Jan 2019 16:49
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Jan 2019 20:25
Hi,
von Bock was dismissed after he disobeyed and tried to take Voronej with a lot of troops, especially the 24th arm. div and Grossdeutschland division. This try delayed the moves of those armored divisions and prevented the encirclment of soviet troops in the south.
This could be read in Halder's diary :
3 July
At the front of Heeresgruppe Mitte, the enemy appears to be dragging off forces from the front of the 2. Panzer-Armee to the Voronezh region. Operation "Seidlits" is developing very slowly.
To take Voronezh by no means under any circumstances.
5th july
the Führer himself at the conference made it emphatically clear' that he did not attach any particular importance to Voronej and left it to the judgment of army Gp that objective go if it could be had only at great cost, von Bock tolerated Hoth' senseless rush for Voronezh and even encouraged it.
'great cost' how much is this?

Once again, the accusations against von Bock are Halder's fantasies. What was thought up by Halder.
1. Von Bock did not want to go to Voronezh by large forces.
2. Hoth tricked von Bock to gain more forces.
Four divisions are few forces, that they became big, Halder thought up to Bock and Hoth their thoughts.
Hoth didnt want to strike Voronej. VB ordered him to do so.
Hoth agreed but asked for support from south.

This led to the catastrophe. It's all VB's fault.

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