von Bock and Voronej

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Peter89
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by Peter89 » 25 Jan 2019 21:46

Our native English fellows might help me out here. Does our beloved jesk confuse environment with envelopment...?

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dgfred
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by dgfred » 25 Jan 2019 22:26

Yes... sometimes I have problems reading jesk. And yes, beloved :)

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 07:32

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
25 Jan 2019 21:01
I already answered to that. Buildings have no value. Railroad has big value.
What is source of your words about Voronezh? Link where you found out the whole truth.
More soviets troops captured and the closer to Stalingrad they would have been.
There is a very small environment. +10000. Von Bock would never have thought of such a thing. Then Rostov instead of Stalingrad. Forget the word "Stalingrad". All sources recognize the weakening of this direction by Hitler.
No order not to take Voronezh, only if there are no big forces.
AND not to use motor. div.
VB disobeyed.
The order was received on July 5th. 24 PD has already fought in the city. Von Bock did not disobeyed.
Soviet troops wd have been encircled in the south by the arm. div. that have been immobilized in Voronej.
Hitler invented a dubious environment. The same in Rostov, due to the weakening of the Stalingrad direction.
Hoth didnt want to strike Voronej. VB ordered him to do so.
Hoth agreed but asked for support from south.

This led to the catastrophe. It's all VB's fault.
This is a feature of diary entries. Halder expressed his assumptions there. It’s not a fact that he told them to Hitler, von Bock or Hoth.

to me the situation looks this way can not be the subject of discussion of history. These are not statements, but unsubstantiated assumptions.

Image

seems to lie in the fact, slanted reports these are thoughts for a diary. Halder could not state them aloud at lack of those proofs. Quotes from 341 and 342 pages are simply Halder's fantasies.

Image
Last edited by jesk on 26 Jan 2019 08:05, edited 2 times in total.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 07:35

Peter89 wrote:
25 Jan 2019 21:46
Our native English fellows might help me out here. Does our beloved jesk confuse environment with envelopment...?
What does Hungarian Google show?

my
Image

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doogal
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by doogal » 26 Jan 2019 10:45

Peter89 wrote: ↑
25 Jan 2019 21:46
Our native English fellows might help me out here. Does our beloved jesk confuse environment with envelopment

Is this what you refer to
Hitler thought, will be able to surround a lot of Russian forces. But he was wrong, already in first days of the offensive the enemy was completely defeated. For the sake of an environment of the remains nobody changes plans of operations. The environment in the Millerovo region arose due to Hitler’s misinterpretation of sources. Halder wrote about it on July 6th. 'foreign reports' helped Hitler
It would appear given the context that the first use of environment should be envelopment:
The second use could actually be either but given the sentence prior and the context it too is envelopment.
What does Hungarian Google show?
Jesk my Girlfriend is from Mateszalka in the east of Hungary and she says Google (HU) gets it wrong at times and you are translating from Russian with words with similar roots.

Peter89
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by Peter89 » 26 Jan 2019 11:12

Google translate (Hu) is a piece of crap given the unique nature of my thrice-damned mother language. Some people even make fun of it.

Anyway, I don't want to get involved in the "Germans could have won easily, but Hitler sabotaged the war" game, so thank you dgfred and doogal.

Dear jesk do please carry on, where was Hitler wrong, again?

<<takes his leave quietly>>

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Jan 2019 11:32

jesk wrote:
26 Jan 2019 07:32
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
25 Jan 2019 21:01
I already answered to that. Buildings have no value. Railroad has big value.
What is source of your words about Voronezh? Link where you found out the whole truth.
Source for what precisely ?
More soviets troops captured and the closer to Stalingrad they would have been.
There is a very small environment. +10000. Von Bock would never have thought of such a thing. Then Rostov instead of Stalingrad. Forget the word "Stalingrad". All sources recognize the weakening of this direction by Hitler.
The split happened after VB's disobedience.
No order not to take Voronezh, only if there are no big forces.
AND not to use motor. div.
VB disobeyed.
The order was received on July 5th. 24 PD has already fought in the city. Von Bock did not disobeyed.
The order not to strike Voronej was issued the 2nd by phone and repeated the 3rd in person by Hitler who came especially for that in Poltava (VB's HQ).
Soviet troops wd have been encircled in the south by the arm. div. that have been immobilized in Voronej.
Hitler invented a dubious environment. The same in Rostov, due to the weakening of the Stalingrad direction.
What "environment" ?
Hoth didnt want to strike Voronej. VB ordered him to do so.
Hoth agreed but asked for support from south.

This led to the catastrophe. It's all VB's fault.
This is a feature of diary entries. Halder expressed his assumptions there. It’s not a fact that he told them to Hitler, von Bock or Hoth.to me the situation looks this way can not be the subject of discussion of history. These are not statements, but unsubstantiated assumptions.Image

seems to lie in the fact, slanted reports these are thoughts for a diary. Halder could not state them aloud at lack of those proofs. Quotes from 341 and 342 pages are simply Halder's fantasies.

Image
Halder's interpretation of the events is quite logic indeed, and there is no reason to doubt about it.

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doogal
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by doogal » 26 Jan 2019 12:15

I don't want to get involved in the "Germans could have won easily, but Hitler sabotaged the war" game,

unfortunately in this thread Jesk`s position is that Von Bock did not disobey it was not his fault but Hitlers:

In order to not "get involved" in that line of reasoning you will need to show unequivocally that von Bock disobeyed orders or that the orders he recieved were contradictory which led to his miss-interpretation of them.

Where as David Frankenburg holds the opposite point of view that von Bock clearly disobeyed.

I personally think its a bit more complicated than that:

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 15:10

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Jan 2019 11:32
Source for what precisely ?
About not occupation of the city by Germans. I claim, on July 10, 1942 they completely controlled Voronezh. On July 11 as a result of counterattack the Soviet troops beat off stadium and the park on the northeast outskirts. 2% of the square of Voronezh can be released.
What "environment" ?
Encirclement of the Southern front after Millerovo. Hitler weakened the Stalingrad direction, having allocated more, than it is necessary forces.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 15:14

doogal wrote:
26 Jan 2019 12:15
I don't want to get involved in the "Germans could have won easily, but Hitler sabotaged the war" game,

unfortunately in this thread Jesk`s position is that Von Bock did not disobey it was not his fault but Hitlers:

In order to not "get involved" in that line of reasoning you will need to show unequivocally that von Bock disobeyed orders or that the orders he recieved were contradictory which led to his miss-interpretation of them.

Where as David Frankenburg holds the opposite point of view that von Bock clearly disobeyed.

I personally think its a bit more complicated than that:
The hypothesis of von Bock's disobedience evolved from very doubtful assumptions of Halder. He thought up to Hermann Hoth thoughts and actions which he possibly never made. And even with serious mental reservations!

Image

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Jan 2019 15:16

jesk wrote:
26 Jan 2019 15:10
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Jan 2019 11:32
Source for what precisely ?
About not occupation of the city by Germans. I claim, on July 10, 1942 they completely controlled Voronezh. On July 11 as a result of counterattack the Soviet troops beat off stadium and the park on the northeast outskirts. 2% of the square of Voronezh can be released.
Total = 100%
Yourself recognizes that not 100% of the city is controlled since you recognize that 2% was not.

So where is the problem ?
What "environment" ?
Encirclement of the Southern front after Millerovo. Hitler weakened the Stalingrad direction, having allocated more, than it is necessary forces.
We discuss here about Voronej, not about Millerovo.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 15:22

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Jan 2019 15:16
Total = 100%
Yourself recognizes that not 100% of the city is controlled since you recognize that 2% was not.

So where is the problem ?
They controlled 100% of the city until July 11th. You seem to have written, the Germans never controlled the whole city. Something like this.
We discuss here about Voronej, not about Millerovo.
You discussed the desire of Hitler to seize Stalingrad as soon as possible after Voronezh. But there was a very controversial turn of tank divisions in Rostov. Halder considered this a mistake of Hitler.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by gracie4241 » 26 Jan 2019 17:22

Bock was old school and did leave wide discretion to his commanders, and at Moscow this cost him because of dispersed effort and inaction(kluge). He was hit hard on his left flank by Zhukov, and thus was very sensitive to flank protection and it showed here. Hitler had established on the strategic level that a rapid turn to the South to help facilitate a proposed encirclement at Millervo was a priority, although his comments to Bock on July 3 were not as precise as they could have been.In the big picture none of this probably mattered that much because the CORE error was Directive 45 , which completely deviated from Operation Blau (phase 3) by splitting Army Group A and b (july 23) instead of having them First making a joint encircling (two pronged) drive to the Volga(as planned).Had that been done the Soviet forces west of the Volga would certainly have been destroyed and Stalingrad easily taken, allowing for a firm defensive line to be created along the relevant length of the Volga(and the interdiction of river traffic(Vicksburg model). It appears this premature division of forces was predicated on the notion that a rout was under way and soviet reserves were minimal

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Jan 2019 17:28

jesk wrote:
26 Jan 2019 15:22
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Jan 2019 15:16
Total = 100%
Yourself recognizes that not 100% of the city is controlled since you recognize that 2% was not.

So where is the problem ?
They controlled 100% of the city until July 11th. You seem to have written, the Germans never controlled the whole city. Something like this.
Yep.
As i already said : the railroad was free, the soviets continued to held it. The Germans never controlled the whole city. The 13rd they were still fighting in the suburbs.
It was really useless efforts trying to take Voronej.
We discuss here about Voronej, not about Millerovo.
You discussed the desire of Hitler to seize Stalingrad as soon as possible after Voronezh.
Hitler wanted to take Stalingrad, not Voronej.
Voronej was the fantasy of VB.
But there was a very controversial turn of tank divisions in Rostov. Halder considered this a mistake of Hitler.
Halder considered many mistakes from Hitler. But he also recognizes the error and disobedience of VB !

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Jan 2019 17:31

gracie4241 wrote:
26 Jan 2019 17:22
Bock was old school and did leave wide discretion to his commanders, and at Moscow this cost him because of dispersed effort and inaction(kluge). He was hit hard on his left flank by Zhukov, and thus was very sensitive to flank protection and it showed here.
Hoth asked for support to his flanks, not VB.
Hitler had established on the strategic level that a rapid turn to the South to help facilitate a proposed encirclement at Millervo was a priority, although his comments to Bock on July 3 were not as precise as they could have been.
Orders were pretty precise, but VB distorted reality on purpose in order to strike Voronej despite Hitler's orders.
In the big picture none of this probably mattered that much because the CORE error was Directive 45 , which completely deviated from Operation Blau (phase 3) by splitting Army Group A and b (july 23) instead of having them First making a joint encircling (two pronged) drive to the Volga(as planned).Had that been done the Soviet forces west of the Volga would certainly have been destroyed and Stalingrad easily taken, allowing for a firm defensive line to be created along the relevant length of the Volga(and the interdiction of river traffic(Vicksburg model). It appears this premature division of forces was predicated on the notion that a rout was under way and soviet reserves were minimal
Fall Blau could have succeeded if VB didnt hit Voronej.

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