von Bock and Voronej

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jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 18:03

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Jan 2019 17:28
As i already said : the railroad was free, the soviets continued to held it.
Where did you read about "the railroad was free"? The railway is usually in the center of the city and it was occupied by the Germans.
Hitler wanted to take Stalingrad, not Voronej.
Voronej was the fantasy of VB.
This is your fantasy about the desire of Hitler. He just wanted to surround the Russians. Forget the word "Stalingrad" in the context of July 1942. Hitler did everything he could to not take it.
Halder considered many mistakes from Hitler. But he also recognizes the error and disobedience of VB !
These are his logical conclusions. But he did not know what Hoth said. Halder invented him words and thoughts and actions. If Hoth had found out that Halder was thinking about him, he would have been very surprised.
Hoth asked for support to his flanks
There is no evidence for such a statement! Hoth NEVER NOT asked for support to his flanks.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Jan 2019 18:58

The Germans did not take the left bank of Voronezh. In August, Soviet troops created the Chizhevsky bridgehead on the right bank.

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Jan 2019 00:34

jesk wrote:
26 Jan 2019 18:03
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Jan 2019 17:28
As i already said : the railroad was free, the soviets continued to held it.
Where did you read about "the railroad was free"? The railway is usually in the center of the city and it was occupied by the Germans.
The Germans never claimed to have taken the railroad.
Hitler wanted to take Stalingrad, not Voronej.
Voronej was the fantasy of VB.
This is your fantasy about the desire of Hitler. He just wanted to surround the Russians. Forget the word "Stalingrad" in the context of July 1942. Hitler did everything he could to not take it.
He did try but generals like VB prevented him to do so.
Halder considered many mistakes from Hitler. But he also recognizes the error and disobedience of VB !
These are his logical conclusions. But he did not know what Hoth said. Halder invented him words and thoughts and actions. If Hoth had found out that Halder was thinking about him, he would have been very surprised.
There is no reason to doubt about Halder's reconstitution of the events.
Hoth asked for support to his flanks
There is no evidence for such a statement! Hoth NEVER NOT asked for support to his flanks.
He did. Dont make me quote over and over the same text...

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Jan 2019 00:37

jesk wrote:
26 Jan 2019 18:58
The Germans did not take the left bank of Voronezh. In August, Soviet troops created the Chizhevsky bridgehead on the right bank.

Image

Image
As you can see, they didnt take the entirety of Voronej and never took the railroad track.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 27 Jan 2019 07:13

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Jan 2019 00:34
The Germans never claimed to have taken the railroad.
The Germans controlled the road through Voronezh. East of Voronezh really did not take control.
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He did try but generals like VB prevented him to do so.
Hitler made a great mistake by sending troops to Rostov, instead of Stalingrad. Accordingly, von Bock could not prevent Hitler from seizing Stalingrad. Hitler himself prevented by making a mistake.
There is no reason to doubt about Halder's reconstitution of the events.
Hoth never asked to cover flanks.
He did. Dont make me quote over and over the same text...
Logical conclusions cannot be proofs to words, thoughts and documents. Halder thought up all this. Hoth never asked to cover flanks. Von Bock did not disobey. Your source is empty. No other sources confirm Halder’s fantasies.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Jan 2019 17:41

jesk wrote:
27 Jan 2019 07:13
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Jan 2019 00:34
The Germans never claimed to have taken the railroad.
The Germans controlled the road through Voronezh. East of Voronezh really did not take control.
Yep, they did not control the entirety of Voronej.
He did try but generals like VB prevented him to do so.
Hitler made a great mistake by sending troops to Rostov, instead of Stalingrad. Accordingly, von Bock could not prevent Hitler from seizing Stalingrad. Hitler himself prevented by making a mistake.
The mistake was VB's one : sending arm. div. to strike Voronej instead of launching it south.
There is no reason to doubt about Halder's reconstitution of the events.
Hoth never asked to cover flanks.
He did. Dont make me quote over and over the same text...
Logical conclusions cannot be proofs to words, thoughts and documents. Halder thought up all this. Hoth never asked to cover flanks. Von Bock did not disobey. Your source is empty. No other sources confirm Halder’s fantasies.
I have quoted Halder. There is no reason to doubt about his conclusions.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 27 Jan 2019 17:53

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Jan 2019 17:41
I have quoted Halder. There is no reason to doubt about his conclusions.
In court, you would never prove Hoth's guilt. There must be at least a witness who has heard his words. Logical conclusions are not proof. Hoth did not ask Bock for reinforcements, he did not send any "slanted reports".

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Jan 2019 18:06

jesk wrote:
27 Jan 2019 17:53
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Jan 2019 17:41
I have quoted Halder. There is no reason to doubt about his conclusions.
In court, you would never prove Hoth's guilt. There must be at least a witness who has heard his words. Logical conclusions are not proof. Hoth did not ask Bock for reinforcements, he did not send any "slanted reports".
You just neglect Halder's testimony.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 27 Jan 2019 20:02

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Jan 2019 18:06
You just neglect Halder's testimony.
Logic tells me, the conclusions after words "to me the situation looks this way", I can call fantasy. And will be right.

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Want to prove to me von Bock's disobedience, find another source. This one proves nothing.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Jan 2019 21:06

jesk wrote:
27 Jan 2019 20:02
Logic tells me, the conclusions after words "to me the situation looks this way", I can call fantasy. And will be right.

You just neglect Halder's testimony.
Image

Want to prove to me von Bock's disobedience, find another source. This one proves nothing.
Halder's words are logic, not fantasy.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 04 Feb 2019 09:14

What if, Hoth said nothing. Von Boсk himself wanted to cover the southern flank. "Any cost" is plus 2 divisions. Very few. Halder's charges said in support of Hitler empty by any consideration.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 04 Feb 2019 15:47

jesk wrote:
04 Feb 2019 09:14
What if, Hoth said nothing.

Looks like he did.
Von Boсk himself wanted to cover the southern flank.
He covered Hoth after ordering him to strike Voronej.
"Any cost" is plus 2 divisions. Very few. Halder's charges said in support of Hitler empty by any consideration.
He engaged the arm div whereas it was forbidden. Arm. div had to keep on going south.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 04 Feb 2019 16:04

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
04 Feb 2019 15:47
Looks like he did.
I doubt whether it can be considered evidence after the words "to me the situation looks this way". Maybe Hoth would be justified otherwise.
He covered Hoth after ordering him to strike Voronej.
Halder writes, made at the request of Hoth. The diary entry is in the form of an assumption ...
He engaged the arm div whereas it was forbidden. Arm. div had to keep on going south.
not even a hint of such an order in the diary. Where text of the order?

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 04 Feb 2019 20:15

jesk wrote:
04 Feb 2019 16:04
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
04 Feb 2019 15:47
Looks like he did.
I doubt whether it can be considered evidence after the words "to me the situation looks this way". Maybe Hoth would be justified otherwise.
He covered Hoth after ordering him to strike Voronej.
Halder writes, made at the request of Hoth. The diary entry is in the form of an assumption ...
He engaged the arm div whereas it was forbidden. Arm. div had to keep on going south.
not even a hint of such an order in the diary. Where text of the order?
We already discussed that. No need to repeat ad nauseam.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 04 Feb 2019 20:22

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
04 Feb 2019 20:15
jesk wrote:
04 Feb 2019 16:04
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
04 Feb 2019 15:47
Looks like he did.
I doubt whether it can be considered evidence after the words "to me the situation looks this way". Maybe Hoth would be justified otherwise.
He covered Hoth after ordering him to strike Voronej.
Halder writes, made at the request of Hoth. The diary entry is in the form of an assumption ...
He engaged the arm div whereas it was forbidden. Arm. div had to keep on going south.
not even a hint of such an order in the diary. Where text of the order?
We already discussed that. No need to repeat ad nauseam.
I have reason to doubt what Halder said. Everything is very shaky and no other source confirms its logic. At 21.35 on July 3, von Bock sent a telegram that he was moving to Voronezh. Indicated the number of forces. July 5, after the claims of Hitler, it turned out to be a mistake.

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