von Bock and Voronej

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 20 Feb 2019 00:40

David Glantz in To the gates of Stalingrad p.156-166 advances a strange view of the events :

VB understood Hitler's order "not to strike Voronej at any cost" as "take Vorronej as soon as possible" ! That's why he felt obliged to use the used motor. div. ....

But what Glantz omits to say is that Hitler forbade to use motor. div. to strike Voronej... So could it be true that Hitler said to VB to take Voronej as soon as possible and to use motor. div. ? No, sir !

For Mr Glantz VB's disobedience is only an "apparent "disobedience'" whereas it is a clear disobedience.

Glantz doesnt talk much about 5th-9th july events. He just says that Hitler permitted VB to continue the occupation of Voronej while at the same time he tried to send the troops down the south.
Well, this is true that Hitler didnt dismiss VB the 5th july, neither especially ordered him to abandon Voronej that very day. But did it mean that Hitler agreed with VB occupation of Voronej ? I dont think so.
What was important in the eyes of Hitler was to send the motor. div. south in order to encircle the soviet troops. It is true that, as VB noted, it was too late... but it's not Hitler's fault but VB's one !

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by Boby » 20 Feb 2019 11:00

AbollonPolweder wrote:
13 Feb 2019 19:55
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Feb 2019 19:19
You can read my very first post of this thread :thumbsup:
I have read it. And? Where is the order? The order or command ( germ. Anweisung, Befehl) looks something like this:
Image The beginning of the document. It is visible that the document is made by operational Department of the General staff of OKH, on September 3, 1942, concerning group of armies "Don". It was marked top secret.
Image The document was signed by Halder. Show me something like that. The document, sir. Not Halder's stories about the Fuhrer's ideas.
Do you have the link to the original document in germandocsinrussia? I can't find it.

Many thanks

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 27 Feb 2019 21:00

Boby wrote:
20 Feb 2019 11:00
Do you have the link to the original document in germandocsinrussia? I can't find it.
Many thanks
Don't mention it, sir! Hier you are: http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/n ... ect/zoom/5
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by Boby » 28 Feb 2019 12:24

Thank you!

Boby

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 11 Mar 2019 13:47

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Feb 2019 00:40
David Glantz in To the gates of Stalingrad p.156-166 advances a strange view of the events :

VB understood Hitler's order "not to strike Voronej at any cost" as "take Vorronej as soon as possible" ! That's why he felt obliged to use the used motor. div. ....

But what Glantz omits to say is that Hitler forbade to use motor. div. to strike Voronej... So could it be true that Hitler said to VB to take Voronej as soon as possible and to use motor. div. ? No, sir !

For Mr Glantz VB's disobedience is only an "apparent "disobedience'" whereas it is a clear disobedience.

Glantz doesnt talk much about 5th-9th july events. He just says that Hitler permitted VB to continue the occupation of Voronej while at the same time he tried to send the troops down the south.
Well, this is true that Hitler didnt dismiss VB the 5th july, neither especially ordered him to abandon Voronej that very day. But did it mean that Hitler agreed with VB occupation of Voronej ? I dont think so.
What was important in the eyes of Hitler was to send the motor. div. south in order to encircle the soviet troops. It is true that, as VB noted, it was too late... but it's not Hitler's fault but VB's one !
Von Bock's diary does not indicate orders. Halder's logic is not proven.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/19.html

3/7/42

Фюрер приехал в 07.00; несмотря на то что ему пришлось покинуть свою штаб-квартиру около 04.00, он был весьма оживлен и благодушно настроен. Он подтвердил то, что Гальдер сказал мне вчера, и предоставил мне свободу отказаться от захвата Воронежа в случае, если на подступах к городу наши войска встретят особенно ожесточенное сопротивление. Он хочет одного: чтобы находящиеся в городе крупные авиационные заводы, а также огромные депо и прочие железнодорожные сооружения были выведены из строя. Он не будет возражать, если 4-я армия, к примеру, выйдет к Дону южнее города.

The Fuhrer arrived at 07.00; despite the fact that he had to leave his headquarters around 04.00, he was very lively and complacent. He confirmed what Halder told me yesterday, and gave me the freedom to abandon the capture of Voronezh in the event that on the approaches to the city our troops meet especially fierce resistance. He wants only one thing: that large aviation factories located in the city, as well as huge depot and other railway structures, will be disabled. He will not mind if the 4th Army, for example, goes to Don south of the city.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 11 Mar 2019 17:50

jesk wrote:
11 Mar 2019 13:47

Von Bock's diary does not indicate orders. Halder's logic is not proven.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/19.html

3/7/42

Фюрер приехал в 07.00; несмотря на то что ему пришлось покинуть свою штаб-квартиру около 04.00, он был весьма оживлен и благодушно настроен. Он подтвердил то, что Гальдер сказал мне вчера, и предоставил мне свободу отказаться от захвата Воронежа в случае, если на подступах к городу наши войска встретят особенно ожесточенное сопротивление. Он хочет одного: чтобы находящиеся в городе крупные авиационные заводы, а также огромные депо и прочие железнодорожные сооружения были выведены из строя. Он не будет возражать, если 4-я армия, к примеру, выйдет к Дону южнее города.

The Fuhrer arrived at 07.00; despite the fact that he had to leave his headquarters around 04.00, he was very lively and complacent. He confirmed what Halder told me yesterday, and gave me the freedom to abandon the capture of Voronezh in the event that on the approaches to the city our troops meet especially fierce resistance. He wants only one thing: that large aviation factories located in the city, as well as huge depot and other railway structures, will be disabled. He will not mind if the 4th Army, for example, goes to Don south of the city.
Indeed VB's diary confirms Halder's logic very well,
on the 6th july he notes :
"i am seriously mad about the restrictions imposed to me those last days, i said i wanted to attack Voronej"
VB clearly refers to the prohibition to use motor. div. in order to take Voronej and to the consecutive orders to send motor. div. south.

But, what is more interesting is that we see that Hitler was waiting for a quick capture of Voronej. Hitler and VB discussed about it the 3rd july. VB insisted on using rapid means to take Voronej and cut its railroad. Hitler allowed him to do so despite reluctancly.
If Hitler allowed VB to use motor. div. it was only for a quick capture of Voronej, indeed as early as the 4th july.
But the 5th july VB still used motor. div. in Vorronej.
That's why Halder and Hitler were mad about him. And that's why VB complains in his diary about "prohibitions" made to him.
The 8th july finally VB launched the 23rd Pz south... But it was too late of course ! Himself recognizes it : "Fall Blau 2 [soviet's encirclement] is buried".

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 11 Mar 2019 19:22

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Mar 2019 17:50
If Hitler allowed VB to use motor. div. it was only for a quick capture of Voronej, indeed as early as the 4th july.
But the 5th july VB still used motor. div. in Vorronej.
That's why Halder and Hitler were mad about him. And that's why VB complains in his diary about "prohibitions" made to him.
Von Boсk did not use tank divisions in Voronezh. He was not happy with the instructions on what to do. But obey them. On July 5, in a diary, he noted the order received to him:

The 24th Panzer Division and units of the “Great Germany” Division must be withdrawn from the bridgehead and replaced by the nearest motorized division.

At 19.25, Hoth reported on the undesirability of the advance of tank divisions to Voronezh. There is also a complete collapse of the enemy, which has never been observed before. According to the Germans, in Voronezh, the Russians reached the lowest point of the fall.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
At 19.25, Colonel General Hoth told the chief of staff Major-General Hartenen by telephone that the attack on Voronezh tanks would not bring success and lead to heavy losses in the two best divisions (24 td and id "Great Germany"), which would weaken the entire course of the southern operation .

From the OKH rate, Weichs was ordered to release 4TA mobile units in the Voronezh region and move them south.

19.40 from the army group it was reported: "In no other place in our eastern campaign did the enemy have a similar decline in the organization."

The 8th july finally VB launched the 23rd Pz south... But it was too late of course ! Himself recognizes it : "Fall Blau 2 [soviet's encirclement] is buried".
This charge from the series von Bock did not understand Hitler's thoughts. Hitler allowed to quickly take Voronezh. Halder accused that von Bock should not have moved in the direction of Voronezh. The charges against von Bock are in fact invented. Von Bock did not violate any orders.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 11 Mar 2019 19:45

jesk wrote:
11 Mar 2019 19:22
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Mar 2019 17:50
If Hitler allowed VB to use motor. div. it was only for a quick capture of Voronej, indeed as early as the 4th july.
But the 5th july VB still used motor. div. in Vorronej.
That's why Halder and Hitler were mad about him. And that's why VB complains in his diary about "prohibitions" made to him.
Von Boсk did not use tank divisions in Voronezh. He was not happy with the instructions on what to do. But obey them. On July 5, in a diary, he noted the order received to him:

The 24th Panzer Division and units of the “Great Germany” Division must be withdrawn from the bridgehead and replaced by the nearest motorized division.
VB was absolutely convinced that he needed tank div in order to take VERY FAST Voronej. Hitler initially didnt want to... he wanted the moto div to be sent south in order to encircle the soviet troops. VB finally convinced Hitler that using the motor div was the fastest way to take Voronej. 2 days later, Hitler deeply regreted VB 's caprice.
At 19.25, Hoth reported on the undesirability of the advance of tank divisions to Voronezh. There is also a complete collapse of the enemy, which has never been observed before. According to the Germans, in Voronezh, the Russians reached the lowest point of the fall.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
At 19.25, Colonel General Hoth told the chief of staff Major-General Hartenen by telephone that the attack on Voronezh tanks would not bring success and lead to heavy losses in the two best divisions (24 td and id "Great Germany"), which would weaken the entire course of the southern operation .

From the OKH rate, Weichs was ordered to release 4TA mobile units in the Voronezh region and move them south.

19.40 from the army group it was reported: "In no other place in our eastern campaign did the enemy have a similar decline in the organization."

The 8th july finally VB launched the 23rd Pz south... But it was too late of course ! Himself recognizes it : "Fall Blau 2 [soviet's encirclement] is buried".
There was two opposing camps about the take of Voronej :
-the one who didnt want to use motor div
-the one who wanted to use motor div
The first camp was around Hitler, Halder, Hoth.
The second was around VB and Weichs.
The first was right. The second was wrong.
This charge from the series von Bock did not understand Hitler's thoughts. Hitler allowed to quickly take Voronezh. Halder accused that von Bock should not have moved in the direction of Voronezh. The charges against von Bock are in fact invented. Von Bock did not violate any orders.
VB misled Hitler and didnt understand Fall Blau. He slowed down the whole thing and messed it up.
VB should not have insisted about the use of motor div.
It was VB's idea and VB's fault.
We clearly feel that still the 5th july, whereas VB's failure was obvious for one day, VB refused to release to motor div ad to send it south...
It enraged both Halder and Hitler, and surley Hoth too.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 11 Mar 2019 19:54

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Mar 2019 19:45
jesk wrote:
11 Mar 2019 19:22
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Mar 2019 17:50
If Hitler allowed VB to use motor. div. it was only for a quick capture of Voronej, indeed as early as the 4th july.
But the 5th july VB still used motor. div. in Vorronej.
That's why Halder and Hitler were mad about him. And that's why VB complains in his diary about "prohibitions" made to him.
Von Boсk did not use tank divisions in Voronezh. He was not happy with the instructions on what to do. But obey them. On July 5, in a diary, he noted the order received to him:

The 24th Panzer Division and units of the “Great Germany” Division must be withdrawn from the bridgehead and replaced by the nearest motorized division.
VB was absolutely convinced that he needed tank div in order to take VERY FAST Voronej. Hitler initially didnt want to... he wanted the moto div to be sent south in order to encircle the soviet troops. VB finally convinced Hitler that using the motor div was the fastest way to take Voronej. 2 days later, Hitler deeply regreted VB 's caprice.
At 19.25, Hoth reported on the undesirability of the advance of tank divisions to Voronezh. There is also a complete collapse of the enemy, which has never been observed before. According to the Germans, in Voronezh, the Russians reached the lowest point of the fall.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... a-voronezh
At 19.25, Colonel General Hoth told the chief of staff Major-General Hartenen by telephone that the attack on Voronezh tanks would not bring success and lead to heavy losses in the two best divisions (24 td and id "Great Germany"), which would weaken the entire course of the southern operation .

From the OKH rate, Weichs was ordered to release 4TA mobile units in the Voronezh region and move them south.

19.40 from the army group it was reported: "In no other place in our eastern campaign did the enemy have a similar decline in the organization."

The 8th july finally VB launched the 23rd Pz south... But it was too late of course ! Himself recognizes it : "Fall Blau 2 [soviet's encirclement] is buried".
There was two opposing camps about the take of Voronej :
-the one who didnt want to use motor div
-the one who wanted to use motor div
The first camp was around Hitler, Halder, Hoth.
The second was around VB and Weichs.
The first was right. The second was wrong.
This charge from the series von Bock did not understand Hitler's thoughts. Hitler allowed to quickly take Voronezh. Halder accused that von Bock should not have moved in the direction of Voronezh. The charges against von Bock are in fact invented. Von Bock did not violate any orders.
VB misled Hitler and didnt understand Fall Blau. He slowed down the whole thing and messed it up.
VB should not have insisted about the use of motor div.
It was VB's idea and VB's fault.
We clearly feel that still the 5th july, whereas VB's failure was obvious for one day, VB refused to release to motor div ad to send it south...
It enraged both Halder and Hitler, and surley Hoth too.
First, second camp. Opposition. Too difficult for a commander who is full of worries at the front. Your thesis about disobedience and Halder too, his diary was first found. Just coined. There was no disobedience. But a lot of empty discontent. The Russians were defeated and Hitler continued to make mistakes.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 11 Mar 2019 20:06

Hitler was misled by VB on this occasion.
Looks like VB stubornly refused to send motor div south the 5th and the 6th. He disobeyed.
No wonder why Hitler and Halder were mad about him.
The russians were still fighting in Voronej the 7th.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 11 Mar 2019 20:35

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
11 Mar 2019 20:06
Hitler was misled by VB on this occasion.
Looks like VB stubornly refused to send motor div south the 5th and the 6th. He disobeyed.
No wonder why Hitler and Halder were mad about him.
The russians were still fighting in Voronej the 7th.
There was no order to leave the bridgeheads. Wait for a replacement. It seems there was still no disobedience. July 7, Soviet troops had already crossed over to the left bank of Voronezh. Escape and defeat the enemy.

The 24th Panzer Division and units of the Great Germany Division must be withdrawn from the bridgehead and replaced by the nearest motorized division.


Explanations of Hitler himself. He accused von Bock of mismanaging troops. Your thesis of disobedience is not confirmed.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/isaev_av6/01.html

Такое суровое наказание Гитлер позднее объяснял так:
«Он теряет из-за этого [Воронежа. — А.И.] 4—5 дней. И это в то время, когда дорог каждый день, для того чтобы окружить и уничтожить русских; он продолжает сидеть там, наверху, с четырьмя лучшими дивизиями, в первую очередь с 24-й танковой дивизией и дивизией «Великая Германия», цепляясь за Воронеж. Я еще сказал — не нажимайте, если встретите где-либо сопротивление, идите южнее к Дону. Решающее — продвинуться как можно быстрее на юг, чтобы мы могли действительно захватить противника в клещи. Так нет, этот человек делает совершенно обратное. Затем пришла эта беда — несколько дней плохой погоды, в результате чего русские неожиданно выиграли 8—9 дней, в течение которых они смогли выбраться из петли»

Hitler later explained this harsh punishment as follows:
“He loses because of this [Voronezh. - AI] 4-5 days. And this is at a time when roads are every day in order to surround and destroy the Russians; he continues to sit there, upstairs, with the four best divisions, primarily with the 24th Panzer Division and the “Great Germany” Division, clinging to Voronezh. I also said - do not press, if you meet anywhere resistance, go south to the Don. The crucial thing is to move south as quickly as possible so that we can really capture the enemy in ticks. So no, this person does the exact opposite. Then this trouble came - a few days of bad weather, as a result of which the Russians unexpectedly won 8–9 days, during which they were able to get out of the loop ”

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 12 Mar 2019 20:15

jesk wrote:
11 Mar 2019 20:35

Explanations of Hitler himself. He accused von Bock of mismanaging troops. Your thesis of disobedience is not confirmed.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/isaev_av6/01.html

Такое суровое наказание Гитлер позднее объяснял так:
«Он теряет из-за этого [Воронежа. — А.И.] 4—5 дней. И это в то время, когда дорог каждый день, для того чтобы окружить и уничтожить русских; он продолжает сидеть там, наверху, с четырьмя лучшими дивизиями, в первую очередь с 24-й танковой дивизией и дивизией «Великая Германия», цепляясь за Воронеж. Я еще сказал — не нажимайте, если встретите где-либо сопротивление, идите южнее к Дону. Решающее — продвинуться как можно быстрее на юг, чтобы мы могли действительно захватить противника в клещи. Так нет, этот человек делает совершенно обратное. Затем пришла эта беда — несколько дней плохой погоды, в результате чего русские неожиданно выиграли 8—9 дней, в течение которых они смогли выбраться из петли»

Hitler later explained this harsh punishment as follows:
“He loses because of this [Voronezh. - AI] 4-5 days. And this is at a time when roads are every day in order to surround and destroy the Russians; he continues to sit there, upstairs, with the four best divisions, primarily with the 24th Panzer Division and the “Great Germany” Division, clinging to Voronezh. I also said - do not press, if you meet anywhere resistance, go south to the Don. The crucial thing is to move south as quickly as possible so that we can really capture the enemy in ticks. So no, this person does the exact opposite. Then this trouble came - a few days of bad weather, as a result of which the Russians unexpectedly won 8–9 days, during which they were able to get out of the loop ”
Well if Hitler's words do not describe a clear disobedience, i dont know what it does....

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 20:23

Hitler just said, this is written at von Bock and Halder, Voronezh loses the former importance. Then some fantasies that Hitler wanted and did not fulfill von Bock.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 12 Mar 2019 22:26

jesk wrote:
12 Mar 2019 20:23
Hitler just said, this is written at von Bock and Halder, Voronezh loses the former importance. Then some fantasies that Hitler wanted and did not fulfill von Bock.
It was VB's whims to use motor div in Voronej.
The delay doomed Fall Blau.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 23:25

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
12 Mar 2019 22:26
It was VB's whims to use motor div in Voronej.
The delay doomed Fall Blau.
There were no prohibitions. The version of Glantz is quite logical. Halder wrote quickly and could not fully understand.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Feb 2019 00:40
David Glantz in To the gates of Stalingrad p.156-166 advances a strange view of the events :

VB understood Hitler's order "not to strike Voronej at any cost" as "take Vorronej as soon as possible" ! That's why he felt obliged to use the used motor. div. ....

But what Glantz omits to say is that Hitler forbade to use motor. div. to strike Voronej... So could it be true that Hitler said to VB to take Voronej as soon as possible and to use motor. div. ? No, sir !

For Mr Glantz VB's disobedience is only an "apparent "disobedience'" whereas it is a clear disobedience.

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