The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by ljadw » 24 Feb 2020 21:39

Aida1 wrote:
24 Feb 2020 21:30
ljadw wrote:
24 Feb 2020 21:24
Aida1 wrote:
24 Feb 2020 15:02
ljadw wrote:
24 Feb 2020 14:06
The amount of the logistical base would depend on what was available, possible, needed and on what could be transported .
A big logistical base east of the DD line would prove that the war was lost , a very small logistical base would prove that the war was won .
Untrue as there was no need to win in the first phase.
Halder disagrees with you.
He did not as he kept pushing the attack until very late because he believed a decision could be obtained.
He said that east of the DD line enveloping operations would not be successful . That ,when Barbarossa failed, he repeated it,does not mean that a decision could be obtained /or that he believed that a decision could be obtained .
Hitler had already given up the hope , before Typhoon was starting that the campaign could be decided in 1941 .

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Aida1
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Aida1 » 24 Feb 2020 21:46

ljadw wrote:
24 Feb 2020 21:39
Aida1 wrote:
24 Feb 2020 21:30
ljadw wrote:
24 Feb 2020 21:24
Aida1 wrote:
24 Feb 2020 15:02
ljadw wrote:
24 Feb 2020 14:06
The amount of the logistical base would depend on what was available, possible, needed and on what could be transported .
A big logistical base east of the DD line would prove that the war was lost , a very small logistical base would prove that the war was won .
Untrue as there was no need to win in the first phase.
Halder disagrees with you.
He did not as he kept pushing the attack until very late because he believed a decision could be obtained.
He said that east of the DD line enveloping operations would not be successful . That ,when Barbarossa failed, he repeated it,does not mean that a decision could be obtained /or that he believed that a decision could be obtained .
Hitler had already given up the hope , before Typhoon was starting that the campaign could be decided in 1941 .
Enveloping operations could always work. :cry:

ljadw
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by ljadw » 24 Feb 2020 21:48

Not following Halder .

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Aida1
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Aida1 » 24 Feb 2020 22:29

ljadw wrote:
24 Feb 2020 21:48
Not following Halder .
Says you and you are wrong.

ljadw
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by ljadw » 25 Feb 2020 09:43

You mean that Halder was wrong ? And that you know more than him ?

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Aida1
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Aida1 » 25 Feb 2020 11:16

ljadw wrote:
25 Feb 2020 09:43
You mean that Halder was wrong ? And that you know more than him ?
You clearly do not know what he believed

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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by ljadw » 25 Feb 2020 14:03

Oh yes I do : Halder : we must limit the operations in the East to the DD line, we could attempt enveloping operations east of the DD line,but in the endless expanse of space,this would have no prospect of success .
Halder's KTB II P 198 November 27 1940 .
Source : Stahel : Operation Barbarossa and Germany's defeat in the East P 76 .
The Army CoS said on November 27 1940 that east of the DD line, blitzkrieg would not be successful.

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Aida1
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Aida1 » 25 Feb 2020 14:45

ljadw wrote:
25 Feb 2020 14:03
Oh yes I do : Halder : we must limit the operations in the East to the DD line, we could attempt enveloping operations east of the DD line,but in the endless expanse of space,this would have no prospect of success .
Halder's KTB II P 198 November 27 1940 .
Source : Stahel : Operation Barbarossa and Germany's defeat in the East P 76 .
The Army CoS said on November 27 1940 that east of the DD line, blitzkrieg would not be successful.
No doubt misinterpreted by you .

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by AbollonPolweder » 25 Feb 2020 17:46

Aida1 wrote:
25 Feb 2020 14:45
ljadw wrote:
25 Feb 2020 14:03
Oh yes I do : Halder : we must limit the operations in the East to the DD line, we could attempt enveloping operations east of the DD line,but in the endless expanse of space,this would have no prospect of success .
Halder's KTB II P 198 November 27 1940 .
Source : Stahel : Operation Barbarossa and Germany's defeat in the East P 76 .
The Army CoS said on November 27 1940 that east of the DD line, blitzkrieg would not be successful.
No doubt misinterpreted by you .
Of course, "misinterpreted". As always. Let's read Halder:
"Effects of possible operations in Spain and on the Balkans on the Russian problem. The diversion of strength to these operations would compel us to give up "Seeloewe" and to confine ourselves to reaching the first objectives in the Russian offensive. They would certainly give us a jump-off base for a pincer operation, but such an operation does not look promising in these immense spaces."
Why "... such an operation does not look promising ..."? Because of the strength of the Red Army? Because of the economic power of the USSR? Not! Because of "... these immense spaces". In other words: the Red Army will retreat through the Volga, and Barbarossa will fail. :( Man forgets that this will be the aim of Barbarossa. :thumbsup:
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

ljadw
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by ljadw » 25 Feb 2020 18:14

No :it was not the aim of Barbarossa . Besides, a Russian retreat to the Volga would NOT result in a German advance to the Volga .

Ружичасти Слон
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 27 Feb 2020 17:45

Still nobody can to give datas on Germany military planning for logistics after NN-Dniepr line.

No datas for originally plans before invasion starts.
No datas for plans when arrive NN-Dniepr line and decide to continues invasion with no pause for logistics.

How to continue invasion after NN-Dniepr line with no pause when originally everybodys decide must be pause?

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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 02 Mar 2020 21:48

It seems to me Germany army high command not make originally plans before invasion starts. How was to know invasion after NN-Dniepr line was possible? How to know how many troops was possible after NN-Dniepr line?

Was nobody make from Germany army group and army commands plans for to logistics when arrive at NN-Dniepr line?

Very strange nobody make nothing for logistics datas for to invadion after NN-Dniepr line.

Germany high command very busy before invasion was begin for to make plans after victory. Plans for to invasion Turkei, Gibralter, Egypt, Middle East ect. Detailed plans for to base divisions in Russia after victory. How many, which type, which location. Also base plans for all occupyed countrys.

To much work to plan after victory but not work to plan to win victory.

Very strange.

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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by Peter89 » 03 Mar 2020 21:02

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
02 Mar 2020 21:48
It seems to me Germany army high command not make originally plans before invasion starts. How was to know invasion after NN-Dniepr line was possible? How to know how many troops was possible after NN-Dniepr line?

Was nobody make from Germany army group and army commands plans for to logistics when arrive at NN-Dniepr line?

Very strange nobody make nothing for logistics datas for to invadion after NN-Dniepr line.

Germany high command very busy before invasion was begin for to make plans after victory. Plans for to invasion Turkei, Gibralter, Egypt, Middle East ect. Detailed plans for to base divisions in Russia after victory. How many, which type, which location. Also base plans for all occupyed countrys.

To much work to plan after victory but not work to plan to win victory.

Very strange.
If the Soviets manage to retreat outside the operational range of the German mobile formations, the battle was already lost for Germany.

Thus they didn't plan for a long campaign, because the crippling blow had to be dealt before logistics could be an issue.

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dgfred
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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by dgfred » 03 Mar 2020 22:13

I think they might have thought that the Russians would 'fold' up if they could capture Moscow the 1st year. After they didn't capture it... it was just wishful thinking to win the war.

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Re: The Logistics of Barbarossa (or lack of it)

Post by ljadw » 04 Mar 2020 12:31

dgfred wrote:
03 Mar 2020 22:13
I think they might have thought that the Russians would 'fold' up if they could capture Moscow the 1st year. After they didn't capture it... it was just wishful thinking to win the war.
This is not correct, it was the opposite : they were, justifiedly ,convinced that the collapse of the SU west of the DD line would result in the fall of Moscow .The capture of a capital does not result in the fall of a country .

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