where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

[Duncan_M]

And without doubt they would have continued to operate without such "gifts"

How do we know that? How is it there is no doubt?

Because all the others did almost to the end.There is no reason why the most senior commanders would have been less loyal.

"Without a doubt" doesn't mean that Gen G/ Aida1 is convinced himself or someone else is pretty sure. It means zero doubt exists, which is not the case. I doubt, many others too, ergo the statement was actually doubtful.

[Aida1]

How did the officer corps react to Walkyrie ?

Angry and demanded vengeance against the plotters (honor court was led by Guderian). Happy to swear allegiance directly to Hitler and start doing the Nazi arm salute.

You are confusing Hitler's attitude with that of the officer corps.They certainly disagreed with the plotters but not more than that.

[Duncan_M]

You are confusing Hitler's attitude with that of the officer corps.They certainly disagreed with the plotters but not more than that.

LOL. Sure, they all hated Hitler and the Nazis because the Wehrmacht was Clean. Totes! That's why Guderian worked so ardent to hang all the plotters. Because they disagreed, but no more than that.

[Aida1]

You are confusing Hitler's attitude with that of the officer corps.They certainly disagreed with the plotters but not more than that.

LOL. Sure, they all hated Hitler and the Nazis because the Wehrmacht was Clean. Totes! That's why Guderian worked so ardent to hang all the plotters. Because they disagreed, but no more than that.

You are intentionally overstating here.And Guderian did not like being part of the Ehrenhof and stayed away from it as much as possible.He actually saved some officers from death(Karl Walde Guderian Ullstein 1976 pp224-225).

[Aida1]

How did the officer corps react to Walkyrie ?

Angry and demanded vengeance against the plotters (honor court was led by Guderian). Happy to swear allegiance directly to Hitler and start doing the Nazi arm salute.

FM Rundstedt presided,not Guderian.And their attitude towards the plotters was not what you pretend.

[Duncan_M]

You are intentionally overstating here.And Guderian did not like being part of the Ehrenhof and stayed away from it as much as possible.He actually saved some officers from death(Karl Walde Guderian Ullstein 1976 pp224-225).

So Guderian, who sucked up to Hitler, who managed to get a massive bribe about the same time he was relieved of command, for cause (legit too), who by Hitler's wish took over Panzertruppen and then took over as Chief of Staff of the OKH, who then was on the honor courts, who then pushed the new Hitler oath of allegiance, who ordered the use by all in the Heer of the Nazi salute, was actually anti-nazi.

LOL, General G, you're so funny!

[Duncan_M]

How did the officer corps react to Walkyrie ?

Angry and demanded vengeance against the plotters (honor court was led by Guderian). Happy to swear allegiance directly to Hitler and start doing the Nazi arm salute.

FM Rundstedt presided,not Guderian.And their attitude towards the plotters was not what you pretend.

And you know this because you read their post war memoirs?

[Aida1]

You are intentionally overstating here.And Guderian did not like being part of the Ehrenhof and stayed away from it as much as possible.He actually saved some officers from death(Karl Walde Guderian Ullstein 1976 pp224-225).

So Guderian, who sucked up to Hitler, who managed to get a massive bribe about the same time he was relieved of command, for cause (legit too), who by Hitler's wish took over Panzertruppen and then took over as Chief of Staff of the OKH, who then was on the honor courts, who then pushed the new Hitler oath of allegiance, who ordered the use by all in the Heer of the Nazi salute, was actually anti-nazi.

LOL, General G, you're so funny!

I did not pretend anything of the sort.Guderian was loyal BUT he did not have have the attitude towards the plotters you alleged.He never received any bribe.He had to produce a lot of effort to get his estate.How strange that one would 'bribe 'somebody one had just sacked.

[Aida1]

How did the officer corps react to Walkyrie ?

Angry and demanded vengeance against the plotters (honor court was led by Guderian). Happy to swear allegiance directly to Hitler and start doing the Nazi arm salute.

FM Rundstedt presided,not Guderian.And their attitude towards the plotters was not what you pretend.

And you know this because you read their post war memoirs?

Guderian gives a detailed explanation of his opinion on the plot and those who we're part part of it on pp 344-350 of his memoirs.He certainly did not agree with them and believed that those that actively plotted were guilty of high treason.But many that were prosecuted only had knowledge and there the case was different.Guderian certainly did not believe in hanging.Where him saving some officers is concerned,i gave a source.Rundstedt wrote no memoirs.

[Cult Icon]

There really isn't much of substance/controversy in the German generals memoirs/papers to make it a major WW2 trope. It seems to have been originated by some academic analysts with an axe to ground and from I recall, they don't have much to say about it besides a few condemning paragraphs in their books.

Granted.. IF you have read the German generals memoirs and papers/ writings, of course...if you didn't then the conspiracy theory is very compelling as the nazis be bad and the usual biases run amok..

The usual suspects spread this on ACG a decade ago and, in conjunction with academic analysts- like a fool I believed it. Then I actually READ the papers/memoirs carefully and it was much ado about nothing. Like many things, if Wehrmacht sympathizers read certain statements and exaggerated it in their minds it is their fault and their personal responsibility for their willing self-delusions- ditto for the opposing side.

[Aida1]

It is not a coincidence that many that make references to memoirs of German generals do not quote from them.It is because the content of these memoirs does not support their biased statements.

[AriX]

F.Halder wrote book "Hitler as commander" in 1949. I bet it was first book from where it came from.

[ljadw]

Halder, Manstein and Guderian blamed,after the war,the dead Hitler for Germany's defeat, insinuating that without Hitler, Germany would have won .
Everyone knows that this is a pack of lies .
Everyone knows that this is the usual tactic of defeated generals : the French blamed Gamelin, Petain, etc,etc for their defeat, to not be forced to admit that they were defeated by the Germans,not by Gamelin,Petain,etc .
After WWI the dead Moltke jr was blamed for the defeat ,while the truth is that the Germans had already failed before the Marne .
A lot of western historians still refuse to admit that not the Germans failed to win against the Sovjets,but that the Soviets defeated the Germans .
A lot of western historians still prefer to blame Montgomedry, the weather, a traitor,etc, for the failure of MG, instead of admitting that the allies were defeated by the Germans .
The Germans have succeeded into convince people that they lost the war in NA because of the inept and coward Italians .
The Japanese generals claimed that their failure to win the war in China before PH was caused by western help for the Chinese .
The French said that the rebels in Algeria survived only by help from Egypt .

The examples are infinite .

[Paul Lakowski]

Halder, Manstein and Guderian blamed,after the war,the dead Hitler for Germany's defeat, insinuating that without Hitler, Germany would have won .
Everyone knows that this is a pack of lies .
Everyone knows that this is the usual tactic of defeated generals : the French blamed Gamelin, Petain, etc,etc for their defeat, to not be forced to admit that they were defeated by the Germans,not by Gamelin,Petain,etc .
After WWI the dead Moltke jr was blamed for the defeat ,while the truth is that the Germans had already failed before the Marne .
A lot of western historians still refuse to admit that not the Germans failed to win against the Sovjets,but that the Soviets defeated the Germans .
A lot of western historians still prefer to blame Montgomedry, the weather, a traitor,etc, for the failure of MG, instead of admitting that the allies were defeated by the Germans .
The Germans have succeeded into convince people that they lost the war in NA because of the inept and coward Italians .
The Japanese generals claimed that their failure to win the war in China before PH was caused by western help for the Chinese .
The French said that the rebels in Algeria survived only by help from Egypt .

The examples are infinite .

No one knows any of this......only you?

The main point is none of you have ANYTHING better to do with your time.

Go get a puppy and walk in the park - chatting with like minded warmongers, lamenting on regrets and chances lost


This forum desperately needs a "like button" function.

Right now I'm dissecting Askey's volumes on "Barbarossa" and watching INTER humiliate BARCALONA in Champions league, OH crap! Luis Suarez just score!!!

I had no idea how massive the Wehrmacht was!!! 5300 AFVs & 14 to 15,000 half tracks plus 820,000 trucks and 1/4 million motorcycles plus nearly a million horses.

I think German conservative thinking was there biggest enemy.

[Aida1]

Halder, Manstein and Guderian blamed,after the war,the dead Hitler for Germany's defeat, insinuating that without Hitler, Germany would have won .
Everyone knows that this is a pack of lies .
Everyone knows that this is the usual tactic of defeated generals : the French blamed Gamelin, Petain, etc,etc for their defeat, to not be forced to admit that they were defeated by the Germans,not by Gamelin,Petain,etc .
After WWI the dead Moltke jr was blamed for the defeat ,while the truth is that the Germans had already failed before the Marne .
A lot of western historians still refuse to admit that not the Germans failed to win against the Sovjets,but that the Soviets defeated the Germans .
A lot of western historians still prefer to blame Montgomedry, the weather, a traitor,etc, for the failure of MG, instead of admitting that the allies were defeated by the Germans .
The Germans have succeeded into convince people that they lost the war in NA because of the inept and coward Italians .
The Japanese generals claimed that their failure to win the war in China before PH was caused by western help for the Chinese .
The French said that the rebels in Algeria survived only by help from Egypt .

The examples are infinite .

Which is clear bluff. Guderian and Manstein said nothing of the sort.Support your statements with quotes from their writings