where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 05 Oct 2019 06:17

Lost victories was an attempt by Manstein to blame Hitler for the defeat ;it was also a lie: there were no lost victories .
In Panzerleader ( a lot of rubbish ) Guderian blamed Hitler for the escape of the BEF at Dunkirk .
In Hitler als Feldherr, Halder blamed Hitler for everything that went wrong and claimed all successes for him .

Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Oct 2019 14:32

ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2019 06:17
Lost victories was an attempt by Manstein to blame Hitler for the defeat ;it was also a lie: there were no lost victories .
In Panzerleader ( a lot of rubbish ) Guderian blamed Hitler for the escape of the BEF at Dunkirk .
In Hitler als Feldherr, Halder blamed Hitler for everything that went wrong and claimed all successes for him .
As usual not supported by any quote which is not surprising as it is a blatant mispresentation.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 05 Oct 2019 16:35

Robert Citino :
''like all the other German memoirs,Lost Victories has historical holes big enough to accomodate a King Tiger .
Manstein has several agendas :
defending his generalship and reputation
hiding his participation in war crimes
blaming others for everything that went wrong ''
Volker Berghahn : Manstein's memoirs are'' totally unreliable .''
Manstein lied about Stalingrad and blamed Hitler and Paulus .While the only to blame were the Soviets . Manstein hided the fact that he agreed with Hitler about Stalingrad .
Manstein lied about Kursk,saying that if Hitler had authorised him to continue the attack, Germany would have transformed the war in the east in a draw .
And for all those who still claim that he was Hitler's greatest general : 6 months after Kursk, the Soviets had forced Manstein to retreat til in Romania. Something which caused Manstein's dismissal .

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 05 Oct 2019 17:16

Quote from Halder :
''Germany had been hamstring by Hitler's interference.Germany might not have won the war but at least could have avoided the stigma of defeat .The country had been stabbed in the back not by Social Democrats this time but by Hitler .''
In WWI Germany lost because of the Socialists,in WWII because of Hitler .!!!
The quote is of course from after the war .

Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 06 Oct 2019 19:25

ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2019 16:35
Robert Citino :
''like all the other German memoirs,Lost Victories has historical holes big enough to accomodate a King Tiger .
Manstein has several agendas :
defending his generalship and reputation
hiding his participation in war crimes
blaming others for everything that went wrong ''
Volker Berghahn : Manstein's memoirs are'' totally unreliable .''
Manstein lied about Stalingrad and blamed Hitler and Paulus .While the only to blame were the Soviets . Manstein hided the fact that he agreed with Hitler about Stalingrad .
Manstein lied about Kursk,saying that if Hitler had authorised him to continue the attack, Germany would have transformed the war in the east in a draw .
And for all those who still claim that he was Hitler's greatest general : 6 months after Kursk, the Soviets had forced Manstein to retreat til in Romania. Something which caused Manstein's dismissal .
You are misrepresenting what Manstein has actually written.No quotes as usual which is not surprising.For example the statement about achieving a draw was not made in the context of Kursk.Manstein did certainly not agree with Hitler about stubbornly holding onto Stalingrad.You would have to explain how Manstein could have done better in 1943-1944 within Hitler's brief of holding onto everything with insufficient forces.The front was certainly not in Rumania in january 1944.

Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 06 Oct 2019 19:28

ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2019 17:16
Quote from Halder :
''Germany had been hamstring by Hitler's interference.Germany might not have won the war but at least could have avoided the stigma of defeat .The country had been stabbed in the back not by Social Democrats this time but by Hitler .''
In WWI Germany lost because of the Socialists,in WWII because of Hitler .!!!
The quote is of course from after the war .
Hitler did make a lot of bad decisions which is something you are in continual denial of.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 07 Oct 2019 07:28

Aida1 wrote:
06 Oct 2019 19:28
ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2019 17:16
Quote from Halder :
''Germany had been hamstring by Hitler's interference.Germany might not have won the war but at least could have avoided the stigma of defeat .The country had been stabbed in the back not by Social Democrats this time but by Hitler .''
In WWI Germany lost because of the Socialists,in WWII because of Hitler .!!!
The quote is of course from after the war .
Hitler did make a lot of bad decisions which is something you are in continual denial of.
Totally irrelevant, unless you can prove
A that Hitler's mistakes prevented Germany from winning the war
B that Hitler's mistakes caused Germany's defeat .
The French also made mistakes but these did not cause their defeat .
Idem for Italy . The defeat of Italy was not caused by Mussolini's decision to join the war, but by Germany's inability to win the war .
It was the same for Romania and Finland .

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 07 Oct 2019 08:28

Aida1 wrote:
06 Oct 2019 19:25
ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2019 16:35
Robert Citino :
''like all the other German memoirs,Lost Victories has historical holes big enough to accomodate a King Tiger .
Manstein has several agendas :
defending his generalship and reputation
hiding his participation in war crimes
blaming others for everything that went wrong ''
Volker Berghahn : Manstein's memoirs are'' totally unreliable .''
Manstein lied about Stalingrad and blamed Hitler and Paulus .While the only to blame were the Soviets . Manstein hided the fact that he agreed with Hitler about Stalingrad .
Manstein lied about Kursk,saying that if Hitler had authorised him to continue the attack, Germany would have transformed the war in the east in a draw .
And for all those who still claim that he was Hitler's greatest general : 6 months after Kursk, the Soviets had forced Manstein to retreat til in Romania. Something which caused Manstein's dismissal .
You are misrepresenting what Manstein has actually written.No quotes as usual which is not surprising.For example the statement about achieving a draw was not made in the context of Kursk.Manstein did certainly not agree with Hitler about stubbornly holding onto Stalingrad.You would have to explain how Manstein could have done better in 1943-1944 within Hitler's brief of holding onto everything with insufficient forces.The front was certainly not in Rumania in january 1944.
1 Hitler did not order to hold onto everything: there are sufficient exemples of Hitler accepting/ordering retreats
2 Insufficient forces is a poor excuse
3 Manstein was fired because he failed; Manstein also fired generals who failed and they also said that they had insufficient forces
4 6 months is a typo : The Soviets were in Romania in March 1944 after their winter offensive,not before .
5 Remaining in Stalingrad was the only sensible option and Manstein agreed . To abandon Stalingrad before or during/after Uranus was out of the question .

Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 07 Oct 2019 09:55

ljadw wrote:
07 Oct 2019 08:28
Aida1 wrote:
06 Oct 2019 19:25
ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2019 16:35
Robert Citino :
''like all the other German memoirs,Lost Victories has historical holes big enough to accomodate a King Tiger .
Manstein has several agendas :
defending his generalship and reputation
hiding his participation in war crimes
blaming others for everything that went wrong ''
Volker Berghahn : Manstein's memoirs are'' totally unreliable .''
Manstein lied about Stalingrad and blamed Hitler and Paulus .While the only to blame were the Soviets . Manstein hided the fact that he agreed with Hitler about Stalingrad .
Manstein lied about Kursk,saying that if Hitler had authorised him to continue the attack, Germany would have transformed the war in the east in a draw .
And for all those who still claim that he was Hitler's greatest general : 6 months after Kursk, the Soviets had forced Manstein to retreat til in Romania. Something which caused Manstein's dismissal .
You are misrepresenting what Manstein has actually written.No quotes as usual which is not surprising.For example the statement about achieving a draw was not made in the context of Kursk.Manstein did certainly not agree with Hitler about stubbornly holding onto Stalingrad.You would have to explain how Manstein could have done better in 1943-1944 within Hitler's brief of holding onto everything with insufficient forces.The front was certainly not in Rumania in january 1944.
1 Hitler did not order to hold onto everything: there are sufficient exemples of Hitler accepting/ordering retreats
2 Insufficient forces is a poor excuse
3 Manstein was fired because he failed; Manstein also fired generals who failed and they also said that they had insufficient forces
4 6 months is a typo : The Soviets were in Romania in March 1944 after their winter offensive,not before .
5 Remaining in Stalingrad was the only sensible option and Manstein agreed . To abandon Stalingrad before or during/after Uranus was out of the question .
1)You are on the retreat here as Hitler only exceptionally authorized retreats and mostly too late as you know
2)A blatant contradiction as you need to give a commander sufficient forces to attain the objective given him
3)Manstein achieved as much as was possible within Hitler's brief so he did 'not fail.Doing better would only have been possible if a flexible defense had been allowed.
4)haha
5)Manstein did nothing of the sort.In his situation report of 28.11 he proposed the giving up of Stalingrad in case only a small corridor could be opened to 6 .Armee(situation report can be read in full in Stalingrad, Manfred Kehrig DVA 1974 pp 573-575).

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 07 Oct 2019 12:13

1 The retreat of AGC in the winter of 41/42 was not too late.The abandon of Demyansk was not too late .
2 A commander will be given not sufficient forces,but what is available .
3 After Kursk a flexible defense was no longer possible ,because Germany had no longer the neded mobile forces for a flexible defense :the result of Manstein's backhand was that the Soviets were at the border with Romania .
5 In Lost Victories ,Manstein said : Had 6th Army given up the struggle as soon as its position became hopeless,the whole southern wing of the German front would most probably have been achieved .
Or he was lying in his situation report,or he was lying in his memoirs.
The truth is that after the encirclment 6th Army was doomed and the only thing it could do was to fight as long as was possible.
Besides, his situation report was false,as there was NO possibility to open a small corridor .And what did he propose when the opening of a corridor was impossible ?
The choices were : capitulation or fighting to the end .

Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 07 Oct 2019 17:11

ljadw wrote:
07 Oct 2019 12:13
1 The retreat of AGC in the winter of 41/42 was not too late.The abandon of Demyansk was not too late .
2 A commander will be given not sufficient forces,but what is available .
3 After Kursk a flexible defense was no longer possible ,because Germany had no longer the neded mobile forces for a flexible defense :the result of Manstein's backhand was that the Soviets were at the border with Romania .
5 In Lost Victories ,Manstein said : Had 6th Army given up the struggle as soon as its position became hopeless,the whole southern wing of the German front would most probably have been achieved .
Or he was lying in his situation report,or he was lying in his memoirs.
The truth is that after the encirclment 6th Army was doomed and the only thing it could do was to fight as long as was possible.
Besides, his situation report was false,as there was NO possibility to open a small corridor .And what did he propose when the opening of a corridor was impossible ?
The choices were : capitulation or fighting to the end .
1)Mentioning one of the exceptions does not prove a thing
2)If the forces available are insufficient then you abandon the idea of holding a certain line
3)Wrong You clearly do not understand what it means.And there was never a backhand Strike after Kursk
5)You are trying to muddle the facts here.On 28.11 Manstein did believe in the possibility of at least establishing a corridor to 6.Armee and told Hitler that Stalingrad had to be abandoned in that case.So your assertion that Manstein agreed with Hitler is wrong

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