where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Jesk,

The author is a moron with a conspiracy theory mentality and an unwillingness to engage his critical faculties intelligently.

Rommel was a German patriot, for a while he was also a Nazi fellow traveller and he was a skilful soldier in both world wars. The damage he did to the Allies was far out of proportion to any problems he may have caused his own side through any mistakes.

If Rommel was working for the British, he was surely their most spectacularly counter-productive agent ever!

Cheers.

Sid.

[jesk]

In Rommel’s long wait for landing at the Pas-de-Calais, many saw elements of sabotage.

Overlord, Hastings p.200

https://b-ok.cc/book/1310501/a8b061

Much speculation has been lavished upon the extent to which the activities of the anti-Hitler plotters, most notably Rommel’s Chief of Staff, General Hans Speidel, contributed to the difficulties of the German defence. It is suggested that certain key divisions, including 116th Panzer, were kept back from the battle in the Pas de Calais to support the conspiracy. This debate was clouded by the self-serving post-war testimony of Speidel and others when they were seeking to establish their credentials as anti-Nazis. There can be no doubt of Rommel’s sincerity in expecting a second Allied invasion. He devoted precious days to visiting formations of Fifteenth Army, checking their state of readiness, adjusting their deployments. 116th Panzer was edged nearer the coast in two separate moves following visits by Rommel, which bewildered officers of the unit who expected to be ordered to Normandy, but seem most unlikely to have been related to the machinations of the 20 July plotters.

[Yuri]

In Weisung 21 it is very clearly mentioned that the orderly retreat from intact Soviet units to the east had to be prevented :
in German :der Abzug kampkrächtiger Teile (des Russischen Heeres ) in die Weite des russischen Raumes (soll ) verhindert werden .

You have made great progress! Congratulations! Before you wrote about preventing retreat Soviet units to the east. Now it is about intact Soviet units. It remains for you to bring the numbers of the Soviet divisions that crossed the DD-Line remaining intact. But first I advise you to determine what does the term "intact" mean.

I spotted that too. I'm looking forward to ljadw's analysis of which Red Army formations west of the DD Line managed to escape eastwards "intact". And how it was those formations that caused BARBAROSSA's failure.

Why the divisions? Two armies (16th and 19th) were withdrawn intact, can point to the airborne corps.

[jesk]

The subject of technical sabotage is not disclosed. She is big. ME-262 Hitler slowed down its production...

https://www.proza.ru/2011/12/27/1291

Generally, Hitler very often, too often supported the side of the generals, who offered the wrong decision. But this is a system of behavior.
And let's touch the resources. How did Hitler treat them? Human, material, any.
Take, for example, the history of a jet fighter, which, if it were launched in time, would very well cover the sky of Germany from the allied aviation. But no, Hitler ordered to remake the fighter under a bomber. As a result, the army received neither a fighter nor a bomber. Rather, she received them, but too late and too in small quantities. But in the west, Germany was forced to keep 70% of its fighters, protecting the sky from British and American bombers. A fighter jet at that time would be very useful to the Germans.
And take the rocket epic. Why did it take to build ballistic missiles? What, with the help of these rockets stuffed with conventional explosives, could England be brought to its knees or, especially, the USA? Of course not. And in general, why was it to declare war on the United States of America. This country was out of reach of Germany. Moreover, it had a huge industrial potential. And Hitler knew about it perfectly, because in his library there were several hundred books on the United States, serious books, which he thoroughly studied.
In my opinion, at that time Germany did not need to spend its resources even on the V-1, not to mention the V-2 and V-4. A rocket is a good thing when it carries an atomic bomb or another, no less serious substance. And trotyl? This is not for missiles, at least for those of those years. This is now a rocket can not be filled with anything at all, so it is accurate. And then the rocket technology was very, very far from accurate weapons.
But, if we are talking about German missiles and projectiles, then it is useful to mention, in general, the air war against the British. And in this matter there was a huge "miscalculation" of the Fuhrer. After all, the Germans began with the correct tactics of the bombing of British airfields. If only the day, the other, and not a single Allied plane could have climbed into the sky. But no. Hitler suddenly suffered bombing attacks on the cities, giving the British an opportunity to repair the runways, giving the British Air Force pilots an opportunity to rest. It was a disastrous decision for Germany, a solution that Hitler imposed by force.
And remember Dunkirk.
It was thanks to Hitler’s direct pressure that the British were able to get out of the boiler and safely evacuate the troops. The commander-in-chief of the tank army, Kleist, says so directly about this that the British were able to escape only thanks to Hitler. After all, his tanks were just a few kilometers from the port when they received orders from Hitler to stop the offensive. And this is contrary to the instructions of the Wehrmacht Commander-in-Chief, Brauchitsch.
So two hundred and fifty thousand Englishmen were saved.

[BDV]

The commander-in-chief of the tank army, Kleist, says so directly about this that the British were able to escape only thanks to Hitler.

Proof, quote, please.

[aurelien wolff]

for the me 262 thing,did you know that messerschmitt already designed 3 Schnellbomber variant before presenting the aircraft to Hitler?
Also,the reactor where posing a lot of problem (at first ist was to be a BMW but due to the delay of devllopement of this one,they go for the jumo wich also have problem).
And here are my research regarding that topic: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/w ... ult.51015/

[jesk]

The commander-in-chief of the tank army, Kleist, says so directly about this that the British were able to escape only thanks to Hitler.

Proof, quote, please.

http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/1 ... voyny.html

The “miraculous deliverance” from the inevitable death in Dunkirk, as Churchill declared, brought to the British not only Gort and Ramsay, but also Rundstedt with Hitler. Dunkirk - only one of the many fatal mistakes of Hitler, which eventually led to the defeat of Germany in World War II.
“I must say,” Kleist later recalled, “the British were able to escape from the trap at Dunkirk, which we prepared for them, only thanks to Hitler. Between Arras and Dunkirk runs the channel. I have already passed this channel, and my troops occupied the heights that dominate Flanders. My tank group completely controlled Dunkirk and the whole area in which the British were trapped. The British would not have been able to make their way to Dunkirk, since I cut them all the way. And then Hitler personally ordered me to withdraw troops from these heights ”[99].
Kleist underestimated the role of Rundstedt in decision making. However, Hitler, who was eager to confer victory laurels, of course, was responsible for the fact that he did not allow Kleist to crush the expeditionary forces outside Dunkirk. A few days later, Kleist met Hitler at the airfield in Cambrai and, picking up his courage, told the Führer that they had missed the opportunity to destroy the enemy in Dunkirk. The Fuhrer replied: “Maybe. But I didn’t want to send tanks to the Flandrish swamps, but the British would not return to fight anyway. ”[100] On another occasion, Hitler referred to technical problems and the need to prepare for an offensive against the rest of the French troops.
Flying over Dunkirk in September 1944, Churchill told Andre de Stark, private secretary of the prince-regent of Belgium: “I will never understand why the Germans did not finish the British army in Dunkirk” [101].

[jesk]

for the me 262 thing,did you know that messerschmitt already designed 3 Schnellbomber variant before presenting the aircraft to Hitler?
Also,the reactor where posing a lot of problem (at first ist was to be a BMW but due to the delay of devllopement of this one,they go for the jumo wich also have problem).
And here are my research regarding that topic: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/w ... ult.51015/

Hitler, again, again interested in the question! And I think it is necessary to make a start from it.

Both Hitler and Göering asked Messerschmitt if it could be a bomber (Göering during a visit at the Augsburg plant and Hitler during the demonstration at Insterburg) and each time, Willy said it was.
In a twist of irony, Hitler was adamant about the Me262 being a bomber and at a meeting in May 1944, lost his mind when he was informed the 262 was being built as a fighter, not a bomber BUT it appears that no one explained to Hitler that the Ar234, which had made it's first flight nearly a year before and was soon to be ready for service was perfectly suited for a bombing role.

So the insistance that the Me262 be a "Schnell Bomber" did cause some delays in production, but the real culprit (early on) was it's engines - both BMW and Junkers were having issues which delayed the Me262's production from the start. This is why the Me262 first flew under it's own power in 1941 with a Jumo210G mounted in it's nose and then a year later with actual jet engines.

[jesk]

Kleist has an important clarification that usually eludes attention. On May 24, the Germans controlled the heights at Arras, from where they could conduct shelling of Dunkirk, paralyzing the evacuation. Hitler gave the order to retreat from the heights.

“I must say,” Kleist later recalled, “the British were able to escape from the trap at Dunkirk, which we prepared for them, only thanks to Hitler. Between Arras and Dunkirk runs the channel. I have already passed this channel, and my troops occupied the heights that dominate Flanders. My tank group completely controlled Dunkirk and the whole area in which the British were trapped. The British would not have been able to make their way to Dunkirk, since I cut them all the way. And then Hitler personally ordered me to withdraw troops from these heights ”[99].

[BDV]

quote means including sourcing please (author, book).

Arras-Dunkirk is 100 km. I don't understand these alleged vKleist words, (as "quoted" by an anonymous author), because the reason the trap could not be closed is that Rommel was stopped at Lille until June.

vKleist died in Moscow dungeon, anyway, so if Russians open their archive and publish his interrogation, I would accept that. Until such, this is utter nonsense.

[jesk]

quote means including sourcing please (author, book).

Arras-Dunkirk is 100 km. I don't understand these alleged vKleist words, (as "quoted" by an anonymous author), because the reason the trap could not be closed is that Rommel was stopped at Lille until June.

vKleist died in Moscow dungeon, anyway, so if Russians open their archive and publish his interrogation, I would accept that. Until such, this is utter nonsense.

You have no desire even a superficial analysis. An anonymous author is Andrew Roberts. Book "The Storm of War".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ro ... historian)

Andrew Roberts (born 13 January 1963) is a British historian and journalist.

His public commentary has appeared in several periodicals such as The Daily Telegraph and The Spectator. Roberts himself is best known for his 2009 non-fiction work The Storm of War. A look at the Second World War covering historical factors such as Hitler's rise to power and the organisation of Nazi Germany, the book has been lauded by and received the British Army Military Book of the Year Award for 2010.

Kleist was in English captivity, where he reported on the impressions. Arras-Dunkirk 100 km, but in the text it is about the channel between Arras and Dunkirk, where the heights are.
Everything is clear there, author authoritative. Only in the Russian edition does not open source citation {99}. There is no doubt that these are really Kleist's words.

Between Arras and Dunkirk runs the channel. I have already passed this channel, and my troops occupied the heights that dominate Flanders. My tank group completely controlled Dunkirk and the whole area in which the British were trapped.

[BDV]

In 1963, vKleist's corpse was rotting for 9 years in the soil of Rodyna.

at most this is hearsay of hearsay, reported by someone who was not even BORN at the time of speakers' death. No wonder it's absolute nonsense.

That's the problem, with Dunkirk-argumentum and many other arguments put forth by GROFAZ bootlickers. One looks at maps and understands - this is insulting my intelligence; this is lies; these shameless warcriminals (and their sycophants) take me for an idiot!

[MarkN]

quote means including sourcing please (author, book).

The author and the source are credible. The problem is either the translation into Russian, or more likely, the idiocy of the other poster.

The author of the book, Andrew Roberts, argues the complete opposite of what the Bjelorossian clown says. Here is a more succinct text by the same author promoting that very book. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/590 ... f-war.html

Roberts clearly states that Hitler didn't make the decision, he supported Rundstedt's decision.

Here's another text on the subject worth reading. https://defenceindepth.co/2016/07/11/th ... alt-order/

Two more cases of Heer generals blaming Hitler after he was dead for operational decision that they made.

[MarkN]

This quote from Roberts is interesting (my underlining).

However, Kleist was underestimating Rundstedt's important role in the initial decision-making, but with Hitler willing to take the ultimate glory for the campaign, he must also take the ultimate blame for not allowing Kleist to take on the BEF outside Dunkirk. When Kleist met Hitler on the airfield at Cambrai a few days later, he had the courage to remark that a great opportunity had been lost at Dunkirk. Hitler replied: "That may be so. But I did not want to send the tanks into the Flanders marshes – and the British won't come back in this war."

And yet, a month or so later he was claiming the invasion of Russia was merely a strategic ploy to knock Britain out of the war!!!!

Treat everything the overpromoted Austrian corporal said with the same degree of credibility as that of ljadw and jesk....

[BDV]

MarkN,

Sounds fair.

Anything "said" by vKleist, not written by his own hand or recorded (on a recording medium) from his own mouth is highly suspicious.