where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 03 Jun 2019 19:20

jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:42
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:14
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 12:02
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 11:20
How could the Germans easily occupy Britain ? Maybe by ordering some 40 divisions to go to Britain by swimming ?
There was a change of strategy. September 7th. It was already discussed and you do not agree. But dozens of sources say about Hitler’s mistake. He should not have bombed London and other cities.
Even without the bombings of London, the Germans could not swim over the Channel .And there was no change of strategy on September 7 : Liverpool was already attacked on August 28 .
Have you hear about Pearl Harbor? German aircraft could do the same with the British fleet. Until September 7, dozens of aircraft participated in the raids on cities. After the bill went on hundreds. With a complete rejection of military purposes.
PH did not eliminate the US Pacific Fleet .Thus ...

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 03 Jun 2019 21:59

Richard Anderson wrote:
03 Jun 2019 19:05
Hanny wrote:
03 Jun 2019 18:46
ljadw and jesk in full throttle, sadly its because of these two fuckwitz sane people no longer post here.
You noticed that too? Sad isn't it? Fuckwitism used to be at least moderately controlled. Use the ignore button. It helps.
You are only looking for a reason to express disagreement. In fact, this thread is the 4th in the number of comments among 1372 in the "German strategy" section!

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 03 Jun 2019 22:01

ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 19:20
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:42
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:14
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 12:02
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 11:20
How could the Germans easily occupy Britain ? Maybe by ordering some 40 divisions to go to Britain by swimming ?
There was a change of strategy. September 7th. It was already discussed and you do not agree. But dozens of sources say about Hitler’s mistake. He should not have bombed London and other cities.
Even without the bombings of London, the Germans could not swim over the Channel .And there was no change of strategy on September 7 : Liverpool was already attacked on August 28 .
Have you hear about Pearl Harbor? German aircraft could do the same with the British fleet. Until September 7, dozens of aircraft participated in the raids on cities. After the bill went on hundreds. With a complete rejection of military purposes.
PH did not eliminate the US Pacific Fleet .Thus ...
but they seriously patted him for several hours..

ljadw
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Posts: 9673
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 04 Jun 2019 07:08

jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 22:01
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 19:20
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:42
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:14
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 12:02

There was a change of strategy. September 7th. It was already discussed and you do not agree. But dozens of sources say about Hitler’s mistake. He should not have bombed London and other cities.
Even without the bombings of London, the Germans could not swim over the Channel .And there was no change of strategy on September 7 : Liverpool was already attacked on August 28 .
Have you hear about Pearl Harbor? German aircraft could do the same with the British fleet. Until September 7, dozens of aircraft participated in the raids on cities. After the bill went on hundreds. With a complete rejection of military purposes.
PH did not eliminate the US Pacific Fleet .Thus ...
but they seriously patted him for several hours..
And how could the LW do a PH ? Japanese aircraft started from air carriers and attacked unexpectedly a naval base that was at peace .Germany ,OTOH, had no air carriers, could not attack unexpectedly,and Britain was at war .
Besides : did the Germans know where the Home Fleet was located ?

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 04 Jun 2019 07:22

ljadw wrote:
04 Jun 2019 07:08
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 22:01
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 19:20
jesk wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:42
ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2019 13:14


Even without the bombings of London, the Germans could not swim over the Channel .And there was no change of strategy on September 7 : Liverpool was already attacked on August 28 .
Have you hear about Pearl Harbor? German aircraft could do the same with the British fleet. Until September 7, dozens of aircraft participated in the raids on cities. After the bill went on hundreds. With a complete rejection of military purposes.
PH did not eliminate the US Pacific Fleet .Thus ...
but they seriously patted him for several hours..
And how could the LW do a PH ? Japanese aircraft started from air carriers and attacked unexpectedly a naval base that was at peace .Germany ,OTOH, had no air carriers, could not attack unexpectedly,and Britain was at war .
Besides : did the Germans know where the Home Fleet was located ?
If the German ships sailed, the British should attack. Luftwaffe provide cover. Why not. I see no reason.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 04 Jun 2019 12:00

What German ships ?

gracie4241
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by gracie4241 » 04 Jun 2019 16:20

Scapa Flow was well outside the range of the Luftwaffe based in NW Europe;a good reason to base it there.Perhaps in range of Norway based bombers(?), of which there were few.And after Prien's success by UBoat in October, 1939, its safe to say its alertness level was high, unlike Pearl Harbor.Apples and Oranges comparison all the way around

MarkN
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by MarkN » 04 Jun 2019 19:27

Richard Anderson wrote:
03 Jun 2019 19:05
Hanny wrote:
03 Jun 2019 18:46
ljadw and jesk in full throttle, sadly its because of these two fuckwitz sane people no longer post here.
You noticed that too? Sad isn't it? Fuckwitism used to be at least moderately controlled. Use the ignore button. It helps.
Orange is the new purple. Pink is the norm. And so on and on...

Fantasy narratives are the new history. Barking mad commentary is the norm.

:welcome:

Not one piece of documentary evidence has been produced to support the opinion that Unternehmen BARBAROSSA was to be a short war. That fantasy narrative has been posted repeatedly on multiple threads. Not once has a moderator asked the poster to support that opinion with evidence even though it is written into the site rules. Several pieces of documentary evidence have been produced to show Unternehmen BARBAROSSA was a quick campaign that started a war of undefined duration.

Fantasy narratives are not just tolerated, they seem to be encouraged. Fantasy narratives are more welcome than history based on documented evidence. Last man standing rules apply.

:welcome:

In my experience the only threads to have active historical moderation are those managed by Terry Duncan who does a fine job without have the proper tools to do a proper job. The rest have reactive insult moderation after a complaint.

jesk
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Location: Belarus

Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 05 Jun 2019 06:35

ljadw wrote:
04 Jun 2019 12:00
What German ships ?
Not only Germany. Ships of France, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Poland, Norway could be used to attack the islands. Yugoslavia, Greece, even from there across the Danube to transport, for example, boats.

jesk
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Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 05 Jun 2019 06:53

MarkN wrote:
04 Jun 2019 19:27
Richard Anderson wrote:
03 Jun 2019 19:05
Hanny wrote:
03 Jun 2019 18:46
ljadw and jesk in full throttle, sadly its because of these two fuckwitz sane people no longer post here.
You noticed that too? Sad isn't it? Fuckwitism used to be at least moderately controlled. Use the ignore button. It helps.
Orange is the new purple. Pink is the norm. And so on and on...

Fantasy narratives are the new history. Barking mad commentary is the norm.

:welcome:

Not one piece of documentary evidence has been produced to support the opinion that Unternehmen BARBAROSSA was to be a short war. That fantasy narrative has been posted repeatedly on multiple threads. Not once has a moderator asked the poster to support that opinion with evidence even though it is written into the site rules. Several pieces of documentary evidence have been produced to show Unternehmen BARBAROSSA was a quick campaign that started a war of undefined duration.

Fantasy narratives are not just tolerated, they seem to be encouraged. Fantasy narratives are more welcome than history based on documented evidence. Last man standing rules apply.

:welcome:

In my experience the only threads to have active historical moderation are those managed by Terry Duncan who does a fine job without have the proper tools to do a proper job. The rest have reactive insult moderation after a complaint.
Why fantasy. I gave simple examples of how Germany could have won, for example, in 1943. In Norway, instead of 14, leave it there 4. In Yugoslavia and Greece, 7-8 is enough. Hitler made a mistake by placing 40 German divisions in the 3 countries mentioned. And this distribution made it possible to land successfully in Sicily.
Everything is very, very simple. Germany could not lose the war. Without Hitler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat

The Führer does not agree with ... [Mussolini] that the most likely invasion point is Sicily. Furthermore, he believes that the discovered Anglo-Saxon order confirms the assumption that the planned attacks will be directed mainly against Sardinia and the Peloponnesus.[107]

Hitler informed Mussolini that Greece, Sardinia and Corsica must be defended "at all costs", and that German troops would be best placed to do the job. He ordered that the experienced 1st Panzer Division be transferred from France to Salonika.[108][109] The order was intercepted by GC&CS on 21 May.[110] By the end of June, German troop strength on Sardinia had been doubled to 10,000, with fighter aircraft also based there as support. Two panzer divisions were moved to the Balkans from the Eastern Front; German torpedo boats were moved from Sicily to the Greek islands in preparation. Seven German divisions transferred to Greece, raising the number present to eight, and ten were posted to the Balkans, raising the number present to eighteen.[111]

On 9 July the Allies invaded Sicily in Operation Husky. German signals intercepted by GC&CS showed that even four hours after the invasion of Sicily began, twenty-one aircraft left Sicily to reinforce Sardinia.[113] For a considerable time after the initial invasion, Hitler was still convinced that an attack on the Balkans was imminent,[114] and in late July he sent General Erwin Rommel to Salonika to prepare the defence of the region. By the time the German high command realised the mistake, it was too late to make a difference.[115]

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 05 Jun 2019 07:22

Fuhrer, where are the Germans? You made a mistake?

Image

Sid Guttridge
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Jun 2019 12:54

Hi MarkN,

You (I think) write "Not one piece of documentary evidence has been produced to support the opinion that Unternehmen BARBAROSSA was to be a short war."

What do you mean by "short war"?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 05 Jun 2019 18:18

jesk wrote:
05 Jun 2019 06:35
ljadw wrote:
04 Jun 2019 12:00
What German ships ?
Not only Germany. Ships of France, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Poland, Norway could be used to attack the islands. Yugoslavia, Greece, even from there across the Danube to transport, for example, boats.
The ships that were available were mostly barges who were unable to cross the Channel in September . Germany was able to land not more than 5000 men,without heavy weapons on the first day . On the second day even less ,idem on the third and following days . The Home Forces were strong enough to eliminate them .
As Greece was still neutral Germany could not use Greek ships, besides these ships could not go to German occupied ports .
You can always look at the different Sea Lion threads .

Paul Lakowski
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Paul Lakowski » 06 Jun 2019 01:39

ljadw wrote:
05 Jun 2019 18:18
jesk wrote:
05 Jun 2019 06:35
ljadw wrote:
04 Jun 2019 12:00
What German ships ?
Not only Germany. Ships of France, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Poland, Norway could be used to attack the islands. Yugoslavia, Greece, even from there across the Danube to transport, for example, boats.
The ships that were available were mostly barges who were unable to cross the Channel in September . Germany was able to land not more than 5000 men,without heavy weapons on the first day . On the second day even less ,idem on the third and following days . The Home Forces were strong enough to eliminate them .
As Greece was still neutral Germany could not use Greek ships, besides these ships could not go to German occupied ports .
You can always look at the different Sea Lion threads .
Churchill's memoirs, report that Pound [First Sea Lord] study showed the Germans could land 200,000 troops in the first wave and there was nothing they could do to stop that. Churchill accepted this but thought 100,000 was the upper limit. Both agreed the Germans would get no resupply.

Being raised in Britain, with a father was drafted into the WEHRMACHT from Poland , plus uncle's who were in British service- I've listen to these stories for decades . When we moved to Canada I was exposed to the whole commonwealth thing - along with AMERICA history and the whole NATO/WARPACT thing. Pretty well rounded, but we never believed the RN could stop any invasion FAST ENOUGH , even with RAF support.

By the time Germans are landed enough forces in England, so their recon units are all over the south coast, the War Cabinet would push Churchill aside and call for an armistice.

History never works out the way most expect it too.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 06 Jun 2019 06:03

On DDay,the Allies landed 133000 men + 23000 airborne!!
I do not believe that the Germans could land more men than the Allied did .

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