Uh, by the way, in case you haven't realized it yet, you will get a better response arguing with my cat than you will by arguing with ljadw. No one is quite sure whether he/she/it is a real person, a professional troll, or a particularly perverse Russian bot. The best way to handle he/she/it is by putting he/she/it on ignore and only periodically clicking on he/she/it's responses when one requires a dose of mindless fantasy.Dre Foerster wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 20:26I’m not sure what you’re asking in your last point. French is my first language so sometimes it’s a little difficult for me (that’s also most likely why my posts are sometimes difficult to read as well, so my bad on that).
where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
Revisionist proposals and books based on them deserve scrutiny. At their core are specific new primary source discoveries (genuine or otherwise) and/or a reinterpretation of existing information (carefully argued or wildly speculative). It is not necessary to reproduce a book on a forum site such as this in order to be able to present the core of a revisionist argument and, more importantly, the information on which it is based. Until you have done that, your assertion of ‘facts’ that have not been demonstrated will, I’m afraid, draw more than an average level of adverse comment.Dre Foerster wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 20:26I recommend authors because I try to be humble enough to admit I’m not an expert, and that I can’t write a book or article here. And why not propose different works with different opinions to people?
Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
I didn't know you have a cat .Richard Anderson wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 02:23Uh, by the way, in case you haven't realized it yet, you will get a better response arguing with my cat than you will by arguing with ljadw. No one is quite sure whether he/she/it is a real person, a professional troll, or a particularly perverse Russian bot. The best way to handle he/she/it is by putting he/she/it on ignore and only periodically clicking on he/she/it's responses when one requires a dose of mindless fantasy.Dre Foerster wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 20:26I’m not sure what you’re asking in your last point. French is my first language so sometimes it’s a little difficult for me (that’s also most likely why my posts are sometimes difficult to read as well, so my bad on that).
Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
No, he wrote it alone. First in Landsberg, later (part II, 1926) in Berchtesgaden.Dre Foerster wrote:Hitler didn’t write Mein Kampf, he dictated it to Hess.
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
That is, you admit that Hitler signed Barbarossa at gunpoint Halder or Jodl? As far as I know, Hitler was a dictator, and these guys do not sign documents against their wishes.Dre Foerster wrote: ↑21 Jun 2019, 20:10...
In the end, we cannot say that Barbarossa was either in accordance with or against Hitler's wishes, since these were not completely clear.
...
Oh really? And therefore he concluded in 1939 treaties with "Judeo-bolshevism" about non-aggression and friendship?Dre Foerster wrote: Hitler was, more than anything, concerned with the annihilation of “Judeo-Bolshevism” from the face of the earth.
And if England had made peace with Germany in the years 1940-41, would Hitler attack "Judeo-bolshevism"?
Read these two documents:
1 - it is the IV point of Barbarossa, where it is written: "... it is a question of precautionary measures in case Russia changes its position in relation to us." Barbarossa is a top secret document, why does it need any extra precautions? Why is there no such item in the plans of Gelb and Seeloewе? Hitler is going to attack France and England unconditionally, and here is some condition! Such a point was in another plan. If you find it, it will become clear to you why Hitler wrote point IV in Barbarossa.
2 – this is an OKW order on the time of the attack on the USSR. Here we are interested in paragraph 3. b) "The code word "Altona." This means stopping the attack and taking into account the full unmasking of the deployment."
What a strange hatred of "Judeo-Bolshevism", don't you think? The Fuhrer is preparing half a year a great attack in deep secrecy, and then, suddenly, 12 days before the beginning, Adolph admits that he can stop the attack and reveal to the enemy the deployment of his troops grouping. Why did Adolf need the word “Altona” if he already in Mein Kampf wrote about the annihilation of “Judeo-Bolshevism” from the face of the earth?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 12:37That is, you admit that Hitler signed Barbarossa at gunpoint Halder or Jodl? As far as I know, Hitler was a dictator, and these guys do not sign documents against their wishes.Dre Foerster wrote: ↑21 Jun 2019, 20:10...
In the end, we cannot say that Barbarossa was either in accordance with or against Hitler's wishes, since these were not completely clear.
...Oh really? And therefore he concluded in 1939 treaties with "Judeo-bolshevism" about non-aggression and friendship?Dre Foerster wrote: Hitler was, more than anything, concerned with the annihilation of “Judeo-Bolshevism” from the face of the earth.
And if England had made peace with Germany in the years 1940-41, would Hitler attack "Judeo-bolshevism"?
Read these two documents:
1 - it is the IV point of Barbarossa, where it is written: "... it is a question of precautionary measures in case Russia changes its position in relation to us." Barbarossa is a top secret document, why does it need any extra precautions? Why is there no such item in the plans of Gelb and Seeloewе? Hitler is going to attack France and England unconditionally, and here is some condition! Such a point was in another plan. If you find it, it will become clear to you why Hitler wrote point IV in Barbarossa.
2 – this is an OKW order on the time of the attack on the USSR. Here we are interested in paragraph 3. b) "The code word "Altona." This means stopping the attack and taking into account the full unmasking of the deployment."
What a strange hatred of "Judeo-Bolshevism", don't you think? The Fuhrer is preparing half a year a great attack in deep secrecy, and then, suddenly, 12 days before the beginning, Adolph admits that he can stop the attack and reveal to the enemy the deployment of his troops grouping. Why did Adolf need the word “Altona” if he already in Mein Kampf wrote about the annihilation of “Judeo-Bolshevism” from the face of the earth?
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
The paragraph being referred to stated-AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 12:37IV point of Barbarossa, where it is written: "... it is a question of precautionary measures in case Russia changes its position in relation to us." Barbarossa is a top secret document, why does it need any extra precautions? Why is there no such item in the plans of Gelb and Seeloewе?
“All orders to be issued by the Commanders in Chief on the basis of this directive must clearly indicate that they are precautionary measures for the possibility that Russia should change her present attitude toward us. The number of officers to be assigned to the preparatory work at an early date is to be kept as small as possible; additional personnel should be briefed as late as possible and only to the extent required for the activity of each individual. Otherwise, through the discovery of our preparations - the date of their execution has not even been fixed - there is danger that most serious political and military disadvantages may arise.”
Surely this is just Hitler taking precautions to prevent a leak and getting his excuses in early in the event of a leak occurring. “We weren’t really going to attack, the orders clearly indicate these were precautionary measures. We just needed to be ready in case war-mongers took over the Kremlin.”
As for Case Yellow and Sealion, the difference is that Barbarossa was to be a surprise attack against a ‘friendly’ country and the perceived prospects for success would be reduced in the event of a leak.
AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 12:37OKW order on the time of the attack on the USSR. Here we are interested in paragraph 3. b) "The code word "Altona." This means stopping the attack and taking into account the full unmasking of the deployment."
What a strange hatred of "Judeo-Bolshevism", don't you think? The Fuhrer is preparing half a year a great attack in deep secrecy, and then, suddenly, 12 days before the beginning, Adolph admits that he can stop the attack and reveal to the enemy the deployment of his troops grouping.
Having a pause button was a sensible precaution against the unexpected. The fact is, he didn’t use it.
Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
I can only add that a special programme of action on disinformation has been developed to the Barbarossa plan. And very sophisticated programmeMax Payload wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 14:56The paragraph being referred to stated-AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 12:37IV point of Barbarossa, where it is written: "... it is a question of precautionary measures in case Russia changes its position in relation to us." Barbarossa is a top secret document, why does it need any extra precautions? Why is there no such item in the plans of Gelb and Seeloewе?
“All orders to be issued by the Commanders in Chief on the basis of this directive must clearly indicate that they are precautionary measures for the possibility that Russia should change her present attitude toward us. The number of officers to be assigned to the preparatory work at an early date is to be kept as small as possible; additional personnel should be briefed as late as possible and only to the extent required for the activity of each individual. Otherwise, through the discovery of our preparations - the date of their execution has not even been fixed - there is danger that most serious political and military disadvantages may arise.”
Surely this is just Hitler taking precautions to prevent a leak and getting his excuses in early in the event of a leak occurring. “We weren’t really going to attack, the orders clearly indicate these were precautionary measures. We just needed to be ready in case war-mongers took over the Kremlin.”
And that's what I wanted to say.Max Payload wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 14:56AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 12:37OKW order on the time of the attack on the USSR. Here we are interested in paragraph 3. b) "The code word "Altona." This means stopping the attack and taking into account the full unmasking of the deployment."
What a strange hatred of "Judeo-Bolshevism", don't you think? The Fuhrer is preparing half a year a great attack in deep secrecy, and then, suddenly, 12 days before the beginning, Adolph admits that he can stop the attack and reveal to the enemy the deployment of his troops grouping.
Having a pause button was a sensible precaution against the unexpected. The fact is, he didn’t use it.
Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
I concur. I too read that paragraph as a need to ensure planning security in an attempt to prevent Russia getting wind of it. Naked aggression against a 'friend' that you are supposedly trying to get to join your Pact is quite different to attacking countries that declared war on you 6 months earlier.Max Payload wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 14:56Surely this is just Hitler taking precautions to prevent a leak and getting his excuses in early in the event of a leak occurring. “We weren’t really going to attack, the orders clearly indicate these were precautionary measures. We just needed to be ready in case war-mongers took over the Kremlin.”
Hitler retained the right and the ability to call off BARBAROSSA right up until the troops crossed the border. The Kaiser called off the invasion AFTER troops had already trundled into Luxembourg in 1914. A document outlining the confirmation word is a pretty bog standard affair.
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
For the attack against the soviet union,did someone talked about the nazi ideology itself? I think this factor should motivate them to attack ussr.
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
And why on the first page of Barbarossa are marks, like, "Geheime Kommandosache!"? To allow leaks?Max Payload wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 14:56...
Surely this is just Hitler taking precautions to prevent a leak and getting his excuses in early in the event of a leak occurring. “We weren’t really going to attack, the orders clearly indicate these were precautionary measures. We just needed to be ready in case war-mongers took over the Kremlin.”
...
Having a pause button was a sensible precaution against the unexpected. The fact is, he didn’t use it.
" ... Having a pause button ..." To have pause button is usefull in any plan, be it Barbarossa, Seelion or Gelb. Right?
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
Right. But not always essential. However, this is from Directive 8 (20/11/39) in relation to Case Yellow -AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 13:06And why on the first page of Barbarossa are marks, like, "Geheime Kommandosache!"? To allow leaks?
" ... Having a pause button ..." To have pause button is usefull in any plan, be it Barbarossa, Seelion or Gelb. Right?
“The Armed Forces will make their preparations in such a way that the offensive can still be delayed even if orders for this delay reach Commands as late as A-Day-1, 2300 hours. At this hour at the latest Commands will receive the codeword, which will be either:
Danzig (proceed with offensive) or
Augsburg (delay offensive).”
And marking a document secret, does not eliminate the risk of it being leaked.
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
There is a similar paragraph in Plan Weiss. Can I conclude that Hitler considered Poland a friendly state?
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
You can conclude whatever you like. However, l'd suggest that would not be one of the more sensible conclusions, would it?AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 14:53There is a similar paragraph in Plan Weiss. Can I conclude that Hitler considered Poland a friendly state?
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?
It seems to me that the chances of success are always less if there are leaks regardless of which country you attack - friendly or hostile.I apologize in advance if I misunderstand your thought.Max Payload wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 14:56...
As for Case Yellow and Sealion, the difference is that Barbarossa was to be a surprise attack against a ‘friendly’ country and the perceived prospects for success would be reduced in the event of a leak.
...
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find