Erwin Rommel war crime?

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aurelien wolff
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Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by aurelien wolff » 08 Mar 2019 06:09

Hello,I want to know more about that part of history.

Thanks for your answer.

bam
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by bam » 06 Aug 2019 22:38

Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.

Peter89
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Peter89 » 07 Aug 2019 09:31

bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Armies in wars cause suffering... that is their job.

Rommel was a bit of a black sheep in the German high command, a Swäbisch stranger amongst Prussian circles. He was aware of the nazi ideology, and he was aware of the nature of the system he served. His name is washed clean over and over (which is not really accurate), but no one can deny that he was killed by the nazis. A character of controversy I would say.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by BlaueLitze » 06 Sep 2019 13:09

bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.

bam
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by bam » 07 Sep 2019 19:42

BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention

BlaueLitze
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by BlaueLitze » 09 Sep 2019 14:07

bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
I don´t see how all that applies to Rommel. What are the sources for what allegedly happened to those poor Jews in Northern Africa? How can you proof that either Rommel or the German Wehrmacht were aware of what was done with the Jews? Your argument that "as a commander he should have known" is not valid. "Should" is not "he did".

aurelien wolff
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by aurelien wolff » 26 Nov 2019 13:11

this is a good source for what happened in north africa https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... ommit_any/

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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 27 Nov 2019 12:47

bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Come on. Let's try and keep some perspective. I doubt the mistreatment of a limited number of people (who just happened to be Jewish) was worse than the treatment of the Arab population by colonial powers in North Africa. Especially if youre going to use specific actions to brand soneone like Rommel as as hardened war criminal...

corbulo
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 27 Nov 2019 12:50

Peter89 wrote:
07 Aug 2019 09:31
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Armies in wars cause suffering... that is their job.

Rommel was a bit of a black sheep in the German high command, a Swäbisch stranger amongst Prussian circles. He was aware of the nazi ideology, and he was aware of the nature of the system he served. His name is washed clean over and over (which is not really accurate), but no one can deny that he was killed by the nazis. A character of controversy I would say.
Id say a much whiter sheep than the SS lot. Sane goes for a lot of tbe generals. Let's not get too pernicketty about things, unless all military actions are viewed under rhe sane light

AdolfDettmer
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by AdolfDettmer » 29 Nov 2019 02:03

corbulo wrote:
27 Nov 2019 12:47
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Come on. Let's try and keep some perspective. I doubt the mistreatment of a limited number of people (who just happened to be Jewish) was worse than the treatment of the Arab population by colonial powers in North Africa. Especially if youre going to use specific actions to brand soneone like Rommel as as hardened war criminal...
Interesting phrasing- “mistreatment”... odd choice of word to describe the systemic attempt at extermination of millions of men, women, and children because of their religion.

corbulo
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 29 Nov 2019 16:08

AdolfDettmer wrote:
29 Nov 2019 02:03
corbulo wrote:
27 Nov 2019 12:47
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Come on. Let's try and keep some perspective. I doubt the mistreatment of a limited number of people (who just happened to be Jewish) was worse than the treatment of the Arab population by colonial powers in North Africa. Especially if youre going to use specific actions to brand soneone like Rommel as as hardened war criminal...
Interesting phrasing- “mistreatment”... odd choice of word to describe the systemic attempt at extermination of millions of men, women, and children because of their religion.
Read the recent posts on this thread. We were talking about Rommel in North Africa. North Africa was not Eastern Europe. An internment camp in Tunisia is not Sobibor, Chelmno, Majdanek, Treblinka, Belzec or Auschwitz.

frodo
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by frodo » 07 Dec 2019 22:28

Hi,
we talk about Walther Rauff and his commando. Of course, they committed crimes against the Jews in Tunesia. But there is no evidence that Rommel was involved in any way in these crimes. Rauff was acting since November 26, 1942 in Tunesia and Rommel was more or less nonstop fighting against 8. Army on his way back from El Alamein to Mareth, then leaving Africa.
Cheers

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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by AdolfDettmer » 10 Dec 2019 22:08

corbulo wrote:
29 Nov 2019 16:08
AdolfDettmer wrote:
29 Nov 2019 02:03
corbulo wrote:
27 Nov 2019 12:47
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Come on. Let's try and keep some perspective. I doubt the mistreatment of a limited number of people (who just happened to be Jewish) was worse than the treatment of the Arab population by colonial powers in North Africa. Especially if youre going to use specific actions to brand soneone like Rommel as as hardened war criminal...
Interesting phrasing- “mistreatment”... odd choice of word to describe the systemic attempt at extermination of millions of men, women, and children because of their religion.
Read the recent posts on this thread. We were talking about Rommel in North Africa. North Africa was not Eastern Europe. An internment camp in Tunisia is not Sobibor, Chelmno, Majdanek, Treblinka, Belzec or Auschwitz.
I know we are, but the “mistreatment” that occurred in North Africa under Rommel was part of the systemic murder of millions.

As stated above, had the transport capacity existed, it is certainly very easily inferred the Jews in North Africa would have ended up in the death machine which was created by the Nazis in Eastern Europe.

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Aida1
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Aida1 » 11 Dec 2019 13:20

AdolfDettmer wrote:
10 Dec 2019 22:08
corbulo wrote:
29 Nov 2019 16:08
AdolfDettmer wrote:
29 Nov 2019 02:03
corbulo wrote:
27 Nov 2019 12:47
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Come on. Let's try and keep some perspective. I doubt the mistreatment of a limited number of people (who just happened to be Jewish) was worse than the treatment of the Arab population by colonial powers in North Africa. Especially if youre going to use specific actions to brand soneone like Rommel as as hardened war criminal...
Interesting phrasing- “mistreatment”... odd choice of word to describe the systemic attempt at extermination of millions of men, women, and children because of their religion.
Read the recent posts on this thread. We were talking about Rommel in North Africa. North Africa was not Eastern Europe. An internment camp in Tunisia is not Sobibor, Chelmno, Majdanek, Treblinka, Belzec or Auschwitz.
I know we are, but the “mistreatment” that occurred in North Africa under Rommel was part of the systemic murder of millions.

As stated above, had the transport capacity existed, it is certainly very easily inferred the Jews in North Africa would have ended up in the death machine which was created by the Nazis in Eastern Europe.
Given Rommel’s area of responsability ,you would be hard put to make that stick.Feels more like a desperate attempt to criminalise military commanders for acts they neither ordered nor could have prevented.

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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Aida1 » 11 Dec 2019 14:38

bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.

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