Erwin Rommel war crime?

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aurelien wolff
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Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by aurelien wolff » 08 Mar 2019 06:09

Hello,I want to know more about that part of history.

Thanks for your answer.

bam
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by bam » 06 Aug 2019 22:38

Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.

Peter89
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Peter89 » 07 Aug 2019 09:31

bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Armies in wars cause suffering... that is their job.

Rommel was a bit of a black sheep in the German high command, a Swäbisch stranger amongst Prussian circles. He was aware of the nazi ideology, and he was aware of the nature of the system he served. His name is washed clean over and over (which is not really accurate), but no one can deny that he was killed by the nazis. A character of controversy I would say.

BlaueLitze
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by BlaueLitze » 06 Sep 2019 13:09

bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.

bam
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by bam » 07 Sep 2019 19:42

BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention

BlaueLitze
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by BlaueLitze » 09 Sep 2019 14:07

bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
I don´t see how all that applies to Rommel. What are the sources for what allegedly happened to those poor Jews in Northern Africa? How can you proof that either Rommel or the German Wehrmacht were aware of what was done with the Jews? Your argument that "as a commander he should have known" is not valid. "Should" is not "he did".

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