Erwin Rommel war crime?

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AdolfDettmer
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by AdolfDettmer » 12 Dec 2019 05:14

Aida1 wrote:
11 Dec 2019 14:38
bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.
There is no pretending, Jews were systematically singled out and abused in North Africa.

It happened in Rommels AOR.

Or are you denying that Jews were abused in Rommels AOR?

I don’t think it’s far fetched to believe that German Policy would be the same in North Africa as it was everywhere else. They didn’t send Rauff to Tunisia to be nice.

Peter89
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Peter89 » 12 Dec 2019 10:32

Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

AdolfDettmer
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by AdolfDettmer » 12 Dec 2019 14:01

Peter89 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 10:32
Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
Peter89 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 10:32
Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
Dying as a victim of a regime you actively supported does not garner you any sympathy in my opinion.

Goebbels on Rommel- “ [Rommel] is ideologically sound, is not just sympathetic to the National Socialists. He is a National Socialist”

Peter89
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Peter89 » 13 Dec 2019 07:46

AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 14:01
Peter89 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 10:32
Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
Peter89 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 10:32
Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
Dying as a victim of a regime you actively supported does not garner you any sympathy in my opinion.

Goebbels on Rommel- “ [Rommel] is ideologically sound, is not just sympathetic to the National Socialists. He is a National Socialist”
Hmmm it's not that easy in my opinion. WW2 was full of crimes against humanity and senseless bloodshed on each side. Zhukov was a communist, which system also killed millions, Patton was a libertarian who wanted to use nuclear weapons against civilian population in Korea, and beat up a soldier, a psyhiatric patient in Italy.

Rommel wasn't 0% guilty, but no general ever was.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Aida1
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Aida1 » 14 Dec 2019 17:48

AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 05:14
Aida1 wrote:
11 Dec 2019 14:38
bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.
There is no pretending, Jews were systematically singled out and abused in North Africa.

It happened in Rommels AOR.

Or are you denying that Jews were abused in Rommels AOR?

I don’t think it’s far fetched to believe that German Policy would be the same in North Africa as it was everywhere else. They didn’t send Rauff to Tunisia to be nice.
Not credible as you again give no evidence for your claim

AdolfDettmer
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by AdolfDettmer » 16 Dec 2019 04:31

Aida1 wrote:
14 Dec 2019 17:48
AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 05:14
Aida1 wrote:
11 Dec 2019 14:38
bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09


Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.
There is no pretending, Jews were systematically singled out and abused in North Africa.

It happened in Rommels AOR.

Or are you denying that Jews were abused in Rommels AOR?

I don’t think it’s far fetched to believe that German Policy would be the same in North Africa as it was everywhere else. They didn’t send Rauff to Tunisia to be nice.
Not credible as you again give no evidence for your claim
Which claim is not credible?

That Jews were abused in Tunisia?

That Walter Rauff was sent to Tunisia?

Or that Nazi policy was the systematic destruction of Jewry?

AdolfDettmer
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by AdolfDettmer » 16 Dec 2019 04:32

Peter89 wrote:
13 Dec 2019 07:46
AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 14:01
Peter89 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 10:32
Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
Peter89 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 10:32
Nobody denies that Rommel knew of the NS regime's nature. He may also have been aware and looking sideways when people committed war crimes under his authority. Yet, he died as a victim of the same regime, don't forget that.
Dying as a victim of a regime you actively supported does not garner you any sympathy in my opinion.

Goebbels on Rommel- “ [Rommel] is ideologically sound, is not just sympathetic to the National Socialists. He is a National Socialist”
Hmmm it's not that easy in my opinion. WW2 was full of crimes against humanity and senseless bloodshed on each side. Zhukov was a communist, which system also killed millions, Patton was a libertarian who wanted to use nuclear weapons against civilian population in Korea, and beat up a soldier, a psyhiatric patient in Italy.

Rommel wasn't 0% guilty, but no general ever was.
When did Patton suggest using Nukes against Koreans?

I think you’re confusing him with MacArthurs plan to use Nuclear Weapons along the Yalu River against the Chinese army.

aurelien wolff
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by aurelien wolff » 17 Dec 2019 09:58

Regarding the war crime of the DAK: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... ommit_any/

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Aida1
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by Aida1 » 17 Dec 2019 11:38

AdolfDettmer wrote:
16 Dec 2019 04:31
Aida1 wrote:
14 Dec 2019 17:48
AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 05:14
Aida1 wrote:
11 Dec 2019 14:38
bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42

Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.
There is no pretending, Jews were systematically singled out and abused in North Africa.

It happened in Rommels AOR.

Or are you denying that Jews were abused in Rommels AOR?

I don’t think it’s far fetched to believe that German Policy would be the same in North Africa as it was everywhere else. They didn’t send Rauff to Tunisia to be nice.
Not credible as you again give no evidence for your claim
Which claim is not credible?

That Jews were abused in Tunisia?

That Walter Rauff was sent to Tunisia?

Or that Nazi policy was the systematic destruction of Jewry?
You know very well you gave no source for what you claim happened happened in Tunisia, neither did you even attempt to prove it happened in the area where Rommel was effectively responsible.

corbulo
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 17 Dec 2019 14:12

AdolfDettmer wrote:
10 Dec 2019 22:08
corbulo wrote:
29 Nov 2019 16:08
AdolfDettmer wrote:
29 Nov 2019 02:03
corbulo wrote:
27 Nov 2019 12:47
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Come on. Let's try and keep some perspective. I doubt the mistreatment of a limited number of people (who just happened to be Jewish) was worse than the treatment of the Arab population by colonial powers in North Africa. Especially if youre going to use specific actions to brand soneone like Rommel as as hardened war criminal...
Interesting phrasing- “mistreatment”... odd choice of word to describe the systemic attempt at extermination of millions of men, women, and children because of their religion.
Read the recent posts on this thread. We were talking about Rommel in North Africa. North Africa was not Eastern Europe. An internment camp in Tunisia is not Sobibor, Chelmno, Majdanek, Treblinka, Belzec or Auschwitz.

I know we are, but the “mistreatment” that occurred in North Africa under Rommel was part of the systemic murder of millions.

As stated above, had the transport capacity existed, it is certainly very easily inferred the Jews in North Africa would have ended up in the death machine which was created by the Nazis in Eastern Europe.
Wrong. The internment camps in North Africa were a different kettle of fish. Boundaries are blurred, of course. But i'd prefer to differentiate between gassing children, the elderly, non-workers etc to death in Eastern Europe and holding camps/forced labour camps in North Africa, which weren't entirely composed of Jews.

Let's try and keep as much accuracy as possible, however blurred the boundaries.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... rth-africa

corbulo
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 17 Dec 2019 14:16

AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 05:14
Aida1 wrote:
11 Dec 2019 14:38
bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.
There is no pretending, Jews were systematically singled out and abused in North Africa.

It happened in Rommels AOR.

Or are you denying that Jews were abused in Rommels AOR?

I don’t think it’s far fetched to believe that German Policy would be the same in North Africa as it was everywhere else. They didn’t send Rauff to Tunisia to be nice.
Rubbish. Boundaries are blurred, but Jews were not singled out

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... rth-africa

corbulo
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Location: London

Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 17 Dec 2019 14:27

AdolfDettmer wrote:
12 Dec 2019 05:14
Aida1 wrote:
11 Dec 2019 14:38
bam wrote:
07 Sep 2019 19:42
BlaueLitze wrote:
06 Sep 2019 13:09
bam wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:38
Jews were rounded up in Tunisia in 1942/3 by SS and and SD security services. (no Waffen-SS in Africa). The Jews weren't transported to Europe due to utter lack of spare transport capacity from Africa to italy; Germans could barely transport their own men back.
So the unfortunate Jews, numbering several 100s, maybe not several 1000s, weren't sent to any concentration camps. But they were rounded up, had their property and wealth stolen, were mistreated and brutalised, then they were forced into doing hard labour, including working in military areas that were under attack, uxb clearing, & other shitty jobs. Some were just brutalised and killed as "punishment". There WERE deaths and suffering.
So even Rommel's much praised "Krieg ohne Hass" (war without hate) had its limits. Wherever the Wehrmacht went, they caused suffering. Except maybe in Spitzbergen.
Well, I doubt that the SS and SD you mentioned were ever under Rommel's command. So, if that is so you can't blame the Wehrmacht.
Err, YES u can blame rommel and the whermacht, if only for enabling the action. He and they were aware of it. As I stated, Jews were made to work amongst the forward positions, in areas liable to be shelled. If rommel said he didn't know, tough, that's not a defence, he was commander, he should have known.
Regardless of that issue:
If u look at the trial of Manstein as a similar case of an army commander charged with failing to protect civilians in his operational area (army commanders had direct rule over their rear areas to a certain number of miles, 10-20?)... This is the verdict:
"Manstein was found guilty on nine of the charges. He was found not guilty on the three charges relating to Poland. He was found culpable for failing to ensure the safety of civilians within his zone of command by issuing scorched earth orders. He was found guilty of allowing the deportation of civilians for slave labour, for using Soviet prisoners of war to construct fortifications, for the execution of commissars, for the poor treatment and deaths of prisoners of war, and for the execution of civilians. He was sentenced to eighteen years in prison. " [Wikipedia]

So rommel, had he lived, would have been convictable of the same types of offence," the deportation of civilians for slave labour", " of authorising or permitting the killing, deportation, and maltreatment of Jews and other civilians, actions which had been undertaken by the Schutzstaffel (SS), the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), army units, and police units. And deliberately failing to prevent such killings and maltreatment."

Civilians illegally compelled to do dangerous work, and work of a military nature, is prohibited by the Hague Convention
You are pretending a lot but offer no proof of anything that happened in Rommels area of responsability . Your statement is no proof as no source is given.
There is no pretending, Jews were systematically singled out and abused in North Africa.

It happened in Rommels AOR.

Or are you denying that Jews were abused in Rommels AOR?

I don’t think it’s far fetched to believe that German Policy would be the same in North Africa as it was everywhere else. They didn’t send Rauff to Tunisia to be nice.
Jews were NOT singled out in North Africa

You do not know what you are talking about.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... rth-africa

aurelien wolff
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by aurelien wolff » 17 Dec 2019 14:44

Does anybody here readed my link(I guess reddit doesn't count as a source then)?

corbulo
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by corbulo » 17 Dec 2019 15:16

aurelien wolff wrote:
17 Dec 2019 14:44
Does anybody here readed my link(I guess reddit doesn't count as a source then)?
I did. Finally led to me creating a Reddit account ; p

But there, as on this forum, the nature of internment/labour camps in North Africa is not very well understood at all.

In Europe, Jews and Gypsies were regarded as alien races by the Nazis. In North Africa, Arabs and Berbers predominated. Jews were a tiny part of the population. They were in some senses treated like colonial authorities treated native populations in Africa, in general.

There would have been no reason for the SS/SD let alone the Wehrmacht to want to transport Jews from North Africa all the way to Europe.

It's a silly idea to have.

aurelien wolff
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Re: Erwin Rommel war crime?

Post by aurelien wolff » 17 Dec 2019 16:18


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