Rescue of Leningrad

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 12:29

jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 11:58
Boby wrote:
13 Mar 2019 10:35
You are not bored repeating the same ridiculous thing again and again and again?
What ridiculous?"
Clearly your "Hitler made a million mistakes" and "intentional sabotage" and "without him the russians are doomed" etc, etc you are repeating ad nauseam in every thread.

I don't said anything against the objectives listed in this september order. Anyway, there were sufficient forces for this? More than 3 armies to destroy.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 12:47

Boby wrote:
13 Mar 2019 12:29
jesk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 11:58
Boby wrote:
13 Mar 2019 10:35
You are not bored repeating the same ridiculous thing again and again and again?
What ridiculous?"
Clearly your "Hitler made a million mistakes" and "intentional sabotage" and "without him the russians are doomed" etc, etc you are repeating ad nauseam in every thread.

I don't said anything against the objectives listed in this september order. Anyway, there were sufficient forces for this? More than 3 armies to destroy.
This is logic. 3 divisions against 3 armies. The fact remains as follows. Hitler took all tank divisions for Tikhvin and banned operation against Oranienbaum. Is that not enough to blame Hitler for frustrating September 28 plans?

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 13:25

Сombat structure of the 54th Army on October 1, 1941. 6 rifle, 1 tank divisions. The logic 3 divisions against 3 armies does not work. 7-8 divisions could attack army and destroy it. Hitler saved the 54th army and all armies of the Leningrad front from defeat.

http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Boevo ... 11001.html

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Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 14:33

Yes, yes, yes, yes

Hitler saved the northern front, the center front, the southern front.

Hitler was a soviet agent!

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 14:51

I think Hitler was an agent of the European Union. He knew that after the defeat of Germany, Europe and the United States will unite in a democratic bloc. Communists will become a threat to the world, to protect against which need to be together. Together always bequeathed Hitler to the peoples of Europe.
Hitler fought against Germany. This is a real war, rest is irrelevant. Hundreds and hundreds of errors in favor of the enemy.

Returning to the Leningrad front, Hitler personally repeatedly rejected Leeb’s requests to attack the 8th army and in vain. In a month, the number of divisions of the 8th army decreased from 7 to 1. Army became a reserve for others on the Leningrad front. This area the Germans could clear from the enemy, destroying a lot of his troops. Freeing up its strength for other operations. The Fuhrer forbade touch 8 army.

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Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 14:58

I understand your point here, jesk, but you never explain Hitler's POV, regardless if it was a correct or wrong decission. Same for Volkhov west bank and the link to Finnland and Karelia.

PD: 8. and 12. Pz.Div. 20. Pz. was in the Center.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 15:14

All evidence about Hitler is indirect. I suspect him of a scam. As for the 54 army and the appearance at the front of 8, 12 tank divisions, 20th motorized, I think this is the end. Although can argue. 3-5-10 divisions. If this was not, then it is impossible ever. Hitler snatched 3 divisions as tweezers and this saved the Russians. Together with inaction on the front of the 8th army, where by November only one division left and the area could easily be captured. After artillery to shoot Kronstadt, drown all Russian ships.

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Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 15:47

You are using the wrong map jesk. That was the situation on 15 november, not 1 October, i.e, after the Tikhvin offensive.

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On 1 October the germans were holding the Volkhov river down to Ilmen Sea, so divisions were needed there. Who would penetrate north? They were strong for destroying both armies? A lot of unanswered questions, IMHO.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 16:00

Boby wrote:
13 Mar 2019 15:47
You are using the wrong map jesk. That was the situation on 15 november, not 1 October, i.e, after the Tikhvin offensive.

Image

On 1 October the germans were holding the Volkhov river down to Ilmen Sea, so divisions were needed there. Who would penetrate north? They were strong for destroying both armies? A lot of unanswered questions, IMHO.
Of course are strong. I once again link plans September 28 show? 8,12,20 divisions Hitler deleted 100 km to the south, depriving the Germans of the possibilities to realize their plans. Soviet troops were isolated in 3 groups. Oranienbaum, Leningrad, Volkhov. What contributed to the destruction of them in parts. Tikhvin upset all plans.

Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 16:25

"of course" is no proof.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 16:47

It is your scheme is wrong. The 48th Army on September 14th was eliminated. In the 54th Army on October 1 there were 7 divisions. In the 39 corps of 7 divisions, 1st - 4 divisions.
7-8 of structure of two corps could attack 54 army. Would the Russians withstand? Not sure. Up to complete annihilation, the situation could not develop in favor of the Russians.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 17:19

The strike on Tikhvin is definitely sabotage. I do not see any logic, except the desire to save the Russians from defeat on the lake.

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Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 17:31

It was not just Tikhvin, but going to the rear of 54 Army, for wich there were not enough forces.

But, after the russian counteroffensive, what was the situation? On 15 January AGN was again back to his 1 October position.

PD: Jesk, answer this: Why Leeb, on 26.10., wanted to continue the offensive?

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 13 Mar 2019 17:53

Boby wrote:
13 Mar 2019 17:31
It was not just Tikhvin, but going to the rear of 54 Army, for wich there were not enough forces.
About plans in October need a detailed source. They varied and the initial idea was to interact with the Army Group Center. In rear of the 54 army struck the northern group of 11 and 21 divisions. 8,12,18,20 divisions solved other tasks.
But, after the russian counteroffensive, what was the situation? On 15 January AGN was again back to his 1 October position.
The Russians counterattacked on the stretched flanks. Hitler's plans led to the stretching of the front from 70 to 350 km. Replenishment there are less losses and Germans had to retreat.

Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 13 Mar 2019 18:23

Where do you calculate this 70 to 350 km?

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