Rescue of Leningrad

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jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 12:42

Boby wrote:
14 Mar 2019 12:17
No, I never said I know better, or that you are always wrong.

Sorry, but claiming 2 or 3 divisions can't retreat from the same roads/terrain they used to advance since 16 october is nonsensical.

If Leeb didn't stop the attack, then he considered Tikhvin was important, not your POV that he has no choice but advance (with zero proof).
The 39th Corps first regrouped for 2 weeks on Chudovo, passing 100 km to the south. Then 80 km to the northeast. Do you offer to return to Chudovo? Then north again? But it is long and bad roads there. BDV opened a whole topic. Read before writing nonsense.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=239501&p=2180153#p2180153

The swamps along the Volkhov River were impassable because there were no usable roads. The construction of corduroy roads was the only means of overcoming such terrain difficulties. Since Russia lacks rock and gravel but has an abundance of timber in the central and northern parts, the construction of concrete or paved roads was impossible and corduroy roads became the only feasible substitute...

Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 14 Mar 2019 13:00

Bad roads = but they advanced
Swamps = but they advanced

Not an entire army, but mere 2 divisions. Ha, ha, ha

Ridiculous.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 13:20

But at what speed? 4 km a day? They moved to Tikhvin because there were no other roads. That's all the explanation. The German map is very indicative of roads and marshes.

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Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 14 Mar 2019 13:30

Your point is?

Yes, the orange road on the Lage Ost map of 1 november, when the germans were close to Lipnaja Gorka. You can go east and you can go west. Prove that they cross a single swamp during advance.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 13:46

From Lipnaya Gorka to Tikhvin 25 km. Why Tikhvin can not be taken if it is approached by many roads, with the possibility of supplying reinforcements? Where is the logic. Approached Lipnaya Gorka, found the road and everything? So simple. Your logic with the road through Lipnaya Gorka is classic trolling.

My point in November was late to change plans. Take Tikhvin and move along the road to the north-west to increase pressure on the Volkhov. 12th Panzer Division was moving along the route, but the Soviet attacked the stretched flanks.

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 14 Mar 2019 14:03

Do you ever understand what i'm writing? Not sure.

Tikhvin was attacked and captured. Forget about this. Your POV: 12. Pz.Div. and 18. Inf.Div. (mot.), on 26.10., can't retreat, because it was too late, because of roads, because of swamps, etc, etc

There is no evidence this was the reason of continuing the offensive. Again:

On 26 october, Hitler said "the russians are too strong, it is impossible to reach Tikhvin, but Herr Leeb, decide for yourself" Leeb continued, not because he was unable to retreat, but because his Ic said "Der Führer POV is wrong, the russians are not that strong", and because Tikhvin was an important city to capture, otherwise it would be a waste.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 14:15

Good. Tikhvin is an important city. The Germans advanced 100 km south to Chudovo. Then 80 km to the northeast. When 40 km was left to Tikhvin, Hitler doubted the possibility of continuing the operation. What alternatives to surgery do you offer? I can not understand your point after the proposal of Hitler on October 26?

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 14 Mar 2019 15:18

The alternative is retreat, to the starting point or a middle position. Panzer and motorized divisions (only 4, not 20) out of this area, because they would be needed elsewhere.

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by BDV » 14 Mar 2019 17:18

Alternative is to take infantry units from the assault on Volkhov and move them to the Budogoshch-Tikhvin road; while simultaneously and at the same time faking an attack on Tikhvin and instead pushing the armored units up from Lipnaya Gorka. Basically shifting all his force to the left flank. Alternatively, forget all of this and keep pushing towards Torzhok from NW.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 14 Mar 2019 18:15

No one is taking into account the coming winter.

On 31 october, Busch was sending Leeb a momerandum with four scenarios, attaching a map with color lines (black, blue nord/south and red), with the necessary forces to defend the front: 28, 23 or 16 divisions. The prefered option was, of course, the red one: go back to defend the Volkhov river.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 18:33

BDV wrote:
14 Mar 2019 17:18
Alternative is to take infantry units from the assault on Volkhov and move them to the Budogoshch-Tikhvin road; while simultaneously and at the same time faking an attack on Tikhvin and instead pushing the armored units up from Lipnaya Gorka. Basically shifting all his force to the left flank. Alternatively, forget all of this and keep pushing towards Torzhok from NW.
I do not think that this is possible. There, only 11 and 21 divisions attacked. To cover the flank need at least one division. At most, there was only one left for the attack. The number of divisions near Volkhov is minimally necessary for defense. It is not that area from where possible to release forces.

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Last edited by jesk on 14 Mar 2019 19:20, edited 1 time in total.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 18:48

Boby wrote:
14 Mar 2019 15:18
The alternative is retreat, to the starting point or a middle position. Panzer and motorized divisions (only 4, not 20) out of this area, because they would be needed elsewhere.
Along east river bank there were no roads. Some swamps. Only on the west bank actions. To give the enemy territory, regroup, it could take a month. It simply is not practical, especially before severe winter. And Hitler would never agree to give up the territory. Such an alternative with a living Hitler is simply impossible.

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jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 19:01

And if one road between villages is visible on the map, this does not mean that tanks could have gone along it. And one way is enough. In the Ardennes in 1944 roads were narrow and tanks got stuck there. Russian roads in the autumn of 1941 are swamps.

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 14 Mar 2019 19:27

jesk wrote:
14 Mar 2019 18:48
Boby wrote:
14 Mar 2019 15:18
The alternative is retreat, to the starting point or a middle position. Panzer and motorized divisions (only 4, not 20) out of this area, because they would be needed elsewhere.
Along east river bank there were no roads. Some swamps. Only on the west bank actions. To give the enemy territory, regroup, it could take a month. It simply is not practical, especially before severe winter. And Hitler would never agree to give up the territory. Such an alternative with a living Hitler is simply impossible.
A month? Why not half a year? :lol: :lol:

You have zero evidence of this, simply inventing numbers.

And, we don't know Hitler's plans if Leeb stopped the offensive. 8-)

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 14 Mar 2019 19:35

Your alternative involves moving tank divisions 200 km through bad terrain. If only they fly... I am not Leeb, he was better at timing. But why 14 days? You, as a laughing matter of absurdity, will be easy to answer?

Monday, October 6, 1941

Leeb's personal notes in the notebook:

The Fuhrer decided to launch an offensive in the direction of Volkhovstroi not by the 39th Army Corps, but by infantry divisions. As a result, the next 14 days will go to regroup the forces ...

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