why is Rommel admired by some people?

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#31

Post by Aida1 » 18 Dec 2019, 11:24

ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 11:16
Richard Evans : Rommel was not involved in the conspiracy of 20 Juky :The Third Reich at War .How the nazis led Germany from conquest to defeat .
And also Ian Becket and Ralph Georg Reuth .
You know very well that there are different opinions on that subject.

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#32

Post by Aida1 » 18 Dec 2019, 11:28

ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 11:18
Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 10:41
ljadw wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 22:32
I did not say that the WM surpassed the Einsatzgruppen : I said that the WM tried to surpass them .
All Army commanders in the East collaborated with the Einsatzgruppen : Manstein, Hoeppner, Leeb, Rundstedt, Bock, they all knew what the Einsatzgrupen did and they offered their help .
Obviously untrue as the Army was made responsible for logistical support and housing of the Einsatzgruppen in the planning before Barbarossa.
Thus the Army commanders collaborated with the Einsatzgruppen .
Operationally they had nothing to do with their activities in their area of responsability. So you are intentionally overstating.
.


ljadw
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#33

Post by ljadw » 18 Dec 2019, 13:42

Babi Jar was not possible without the cooperation of the Ostheer ,and Manstein was coresponsible for the massacre of Simferopol in December 1941 .

Boby
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#34

Post by Boby » 18 Dec 2019, 14:34

Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image

corbulo
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#35

Post by corbulo » 18 Dec 2019, 15:26

ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 13:42
Babi Jar was not possible without the cooperation of the Ostheer ,and Manstein was coresponsible for the massacre of Simferopol in December 1941 .
What exactly do you mean with terms like 'co-operation' and 'co-responsible'...?

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#36

Post by Aida1 » 18 Dec 2019, 15:37

Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image
Try reading it yourself and quote from it instead of just showing a pic

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#37

Post by Aida1 » 18 Dec 2019, 15:38

ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 13:42
Babi Jar was not possible without the cooperation of the Ostheer ,and Manstein was coresponsible for the massacre of Simferopol in December 1941 .
An unsourced statement as usual.Manstein was acquitted for the charges concerning the execution of jews.(Manstein , Paget Collins 1951 p 228)
Last edited by Aida1 on 18 Dec 2019, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

Boby
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#38

Post by Boby » 18 Dec 2019, 16:22

Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:37
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image
Try reading it yourself and quote from it instead of just showing a pic
At the end of the book there is a nice appendix with all units that executed commissars and number of victims drawn from BA-MA archives.

Where is your evidence that "so many" ignored the order?

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#39

Post by Aida1 » 18 Dec 2019, 16:36

Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 16:22
Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:37
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image
Try reading it yourself and quote from it instead of just showing a pic
At the end of the book there is a nice appendix with all units that executed commissars and number of victims drawn from BA-MA archives.

Where is your evidence that "so many" ignored the order?
You would be hard put to prove that all units and commanders executed the Kommissar order.

corbulo
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#40

Post by corbulo » 18 Dec 2019, 16:44

Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 16:22
Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:37
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image
Try reading it yourself and quote from it instead of just showing a pic
At the end of the book there is a nice appendix with all units that executed commissars and number of victims drawn from BA-MA archives.

Where is your evidence that "so many" ignored the order?
ok. This is a question. What is the difference in executing commissars and executing spies - which all sides did...?

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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#41

Post by ljadw » 18 Dec 2019, 17:33

corbulo wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:26
ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 13:42
Babi Jar was not possible without the cooperation of the Ostheer ,and Manstein was coresponsible for the massacre of Simferopol in December 1941 .
What exactly do you mean with terms like 'co-operation' and 'co-responsible'...?
The local WM commander delivered the trucks needed to transport the Jews of Kiev to the place where they were murdered .
For Simferopol : 11th Army was sending 2400 men to help Ohlendorf (who commanded the local Einsatzgruppe ) to murder thousands of innocent people .And the commander of 11th Army knew it and approved it .
The commander of 11th Army was Manstein .
Source : Erich von Manstein, Hitler's master strategist P 279
See the two letters from February 12 1942,where Ohlendorf answered on the request of Manstein that a part of the watches from the murdered Jews would go to the soldiers of 11th Army who participated on the massacre .
It is as if Luciano would ask Capone for a part of the booty of murdered shopkeepers who refused to obey Capone, because Luciano helped Capone to kill them .
Nothing for free .

ljadw
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#42

Post by ljadw » 18 Dec 2019, 17:51

corbulo wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 16:44
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 16:22
Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:37
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image
Try reading it yourself and quote from it instead of just showing a pic
At the end of the book there is a nice appendix with all units that executed commissars and number of victims drawn from BA-MA archives.

Where is your evidence that "so many" ignored the order?
ok. This is a question. What is the difference in executing commissars and executing spies - which all sides did...?
13000 people were murdered at Simferopol, of whom 10000 Jews . The number of spies and Kommissars was meaningless . No spies or Kommissars were murdered at Babi Yar .

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#43

Post by Aida1 » 18 Dec 2019, 19:28

ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 17:33
corbulo wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:26
ljadw wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 13:42
Babi Jar was not possible without the cooperation of the Ostheer ,and Manstein was coresponsible for the massacre of Simferopol in December 1941 .
What exactly do you mean with terms like 'co-operation' and 'co-responsible'...?
The local WM commander delivered the trucks needed to transport the Jews of Kiev to the place where they were murdered .
For Simferopol : 11th Army was sending 2400 men to help Ohlendorf (who commanded the local Einsatzgruppe ) to murder thousands of innocent people .And the commander of 11th Army knew it and approved it .
The commander of 11th Army was Manstein .
Source : Erich von Manstein, Hitler's master strategist P 279
See the two letters from February 12 1942,where Ohlendorf answered on the request of Manstein that a part of the watches from the murdered Jews would go to the soldiers of 11th Army who participated on the massacre .
It is as if Luciano would ask Capone for a part of the booty of murdered shopkeepers who refused to obey Capone, because Luciano helped Capone to kill them .
Nothing for free .
Manstein was aquitted here so you are wrong.

ljadw
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#44

Post by ljadw » 18 Dec 2019, 20:04

The letters are not wrong : Manstein and his chief of staff (Wöhler ) asked Ohlendorf that Manstein's men who aided Ohlendorf to murder thousands of innocents,would get their part of the booty .
That's all we need to know : Manstein was not better than Ohlendorf .

Boby
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

#45

Post by Boby » 18 Dec 2019, 20:37

Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 16:36
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 16:22
Aida1 wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 15:37
Boby wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
As so many, he would have simply ignored the Kommissar order.
Evidence?

Try reading this book

Image
Try reading it yourself and quote from it instead of just showing a pic
At the end of the book there is a nice appendix with all units that executed commissars and number of victims drawn from BA-MA archives.

Where is your evidence that "so many" ignored the order?
You would be hard put to prove that all units and commanders executed the Kommissar order.
Most murderous units were Sicherungs-Divisionen in rear-areas.

But we are talking about large formations, like Army and Army Corps. Of course not every single unit down to battalion level (they were hundreds) executed commissars, after all less than 3,000 were actually killed by the Wehrmacht + Waffen-SS in 1941/42. The dirty job was done by the SS+Police.

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