The panzerwaffe

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Maple 01
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The panzerwaffe

#1

Post by Maple 01 » 09 Jun 2003, 12:10

Gents,

There is a lot of talk on the forum about the superiority of German tank units during WW 2.

A few questions came to mind:

1. The German tank arm had it's greatest success while operating relatively weak tanks - Pz 1/2/3's and assorted captured designs - they won by superior tactics - so why is so much attention thrown on the Tigers and Panthers which came into service when the war was turning against Germany? Fine vehicles they may have been (when they got the bugs ironed out) but after Kursk they spent most of their time going backwards! (figuratively) - surely the glory days were 1939-43?

2. German tank aces are held in high esteem, especially the late war Tiger and Panther ones, given that their tanks were superior to almost anything the Allies fielded doesn’t that lessen the skill required to make a kill? I mean even I could take-out a Sherman long-range with an 88mm gun! And sitting behind 100mm steel means your tactics don't have to be great.

[off topic question removed]

Regards

-Nick

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Marcus
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Re: The panzerwaffe

#2

Post by Marcus » 09 Jun 2003, 12:44

The third question is off topic as you well know.

/Marcus
Last edited by Marcus on 09 Jun 2003, 13:24, edited 1 time in total.


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Maple 01
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#3

Post by Maple 01 » 09 Jun 2003, 13:13

That question is off topic as you well know.

/Marcus
All I was trying to ask was were the Aces of the Panzerwaffe better than modern tank crews - I gave an example of the’91 Gulf War but I could have used the Israeli tankers from 1948 onwards

Regards

-Nick

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Eightball
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Re: The panzerwaffe

#4

Post by Eightball » 10 Jun 2003, 00:38

Maple 01 wrote:Gents,

There is a lot of talk on the forum about the superiority of German tank units during WW 2.

A few questions came to mind:

1. The German tank arm had it's greatest success while operating relatively weak tanks - Pz 1/2/3's and assorted captured designs - they won by superior tactics - so why is so much attention thrown on the Tigers and Panthers which came into service when the war was turning against Germany? Fine vehicles they may have been (when they got the bugs ironed out) but after Kursk they spent most of their time going backwards! (figuratively) - surely the glory days were 1939-43?

2. German tank aces are held in high esteem, especially the late war Tiger and Panther ones, given that their tanks were superior to almost anything the Allies fielded doesn’t that lessen the skill required to make a kill? I mean even I could take-out a Sherman long-range with an 88mm gun! And sitting behind 100mm steel means your tactics don't have to be great.

[off topic question removed]

Regards

-Nick
I'll try answer your questions as best I can. By 1942/43 the German Heer and SS for that matter, was starting to encounter better Soviet tanks than before, the T34 started showing up on the battlefields for example, so they needed better tanks to cope. That, and Hitler insisted on making an "invincible" tank, they couldn't really deny him.

It's true that the German panzer aces used superior tanks, but that doesn't mean they didn't have skills. You have to have some clue, like knowing when to fire, where to fire and how to fire to get the desired effect not to mention where to move your tank to avoid enemy fire. If you base your tactic soley on a 100mm of steel, you're destined to get knicked. Remember that these panzer aces also gained their reputation not only against other tanks, but against AT guns as well.

And to the off topic one; I would say the WW2 tank aces where better than the modern ones considering the amount of modern technology stuffed into a tank today.

Regards.

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#5

Post by CHRISCHA » 10 Jun 2003, 11:06

I suppose the easy answer is that most people here are vry intresred in the Third Reich and its armed forces. The mentality amongst many of us is to pay particular attention to the 'elite' units and the most succesful.

Darrin
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#6

Post by Darrin » 10 Jun 2003, 15:31

The ger glory days were certainly in 39-42. By 43 for each ger tank des in the east 3 rus ones were des. Around normandy this ratio dropped to almost 1 ger to 2 western allied. Despite having 30-35% of the tanks and spGUN of the tiger and panther varites by 1944.

While the front armour of the tiger and panthers was impressive no tank was invulnerable. The panther could easily be des by a side shot with the 75mm sherman. Even a sturat with its 37mm gun could pen the panthers side arm. The same could be said about the the tigers side armour with the 76mm and 17lb CW guns.

The effectivness of the ger tanks and crews really come into question because of the relativly low exchange ratio. But when you consider the tanks were oposed by many more allied tanks you can see where the adv still lies. The west and rus had at least a 4 to 1 num adv in tanks and spguns from 43 on. Meaning each individual ger tank and crew was almost an order of magnitude better (8-12x) at killing tanks then either an avg sov or western tank. And that was done with the avg ger tank and crew not jus the elite tigers the avg tank if you include spGUNs was the panzer IV followed by the stug III and panther.

Also most of the elite tank aces got thier inital kills on something else besides tigers and panthers. Witman started with the arty and ealry stugs with the 75mm L24 gun.

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#7

Post by Sokol » 10 Jun 2003, 17:58

Darrin, Soviet tank crews, up until about 1943 (late) had comparatively little training, when placed alongside Germany's treadheads. Furthermore, their (the Heer's) armoured tactics were far more developed. But there is no way you can say that, on average, they were 8-12 times better tankers than the Soviets/Western Allies. That's BS in its most extreme sense, my friend.

If you truly believe that, you're kidding only yourself.

Regards,
Sokol

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#8

Post by Darrin » 10 Jun 2003, 21:31

Sokol wrote:Darrin, Soviet tank crews, up until about 1943 (late) had comparatively little training, when placed alongside Germany's treadheads. Furthermore, their (the Heer's) armoured tactics were far more developed. But there is no way you can say that, on average, they were 8-12 times better tankers than the Soviets/Western Allies. That's BS in its most extreme sense, my friend.

If you truly believe that, you're kidding only yourself.

Regards,
Sokol

I´m not trying to say that in general but neither can you say they and thier crew were only 2-3 times as good by sheer numbers of kills. Some account of the number of kills achived compared to numbers of tanks avilable has to be considered. Also while each rus tank crew early in the war had little training time you could not use that excuse for western tankers in 44. The ger training std were also going down during the war as well.

If the ger have 3000 tanks on the EF on avg during all of 43 and the numbers of rus tanks des was 24,000 then each tank/crew on avg killed 8 rus tanks. On the other hand the rus avg about 12,000 tank on the east and caused 8000 des ger tanks then on avg 0.75 des ger tanks for each ger tank/crew. This info is accurate to the best of my nowlege see Kursk 43 by zetterling if you count both tanks and spguns where I say just tanks above. It is not a therotical consideration the ger according to this real data were an order of magnitude better than the rus during the entire year.

Nick Pears
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#9

Post by Nick Pears » 10 Jun 2003, 21:58

Lets not forget that early war, Guderian's doctrines made the German armoured units the most tactically advanced in the world. Of course, this situation couldn't last forever...
On the last day of manoeuvres a final attack was mounted for the benefit of the foriegn guests; all the available tanks took part in this, under my command. It was an impressive spectacle even though the tanks were Panzer I.
Panzer Leader Heinz Guderian on the situation in Autumn 1937

And being out-produced at a steadily increasing rate certainly didn't help.
The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now become unemployable for a long time to come.
Heinz Guderian on Operation Citadel, late 1943.

Nick.

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Lawrence Tandy
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#10

Post by Lawrence Tandy » 11 Jun 2003, 04:51

Darrin wrote:The ger glory days were certainly in 39-42. By 43 for each ger tank des in the east 3 rus ones were des. Around normandy this ratio dropped to almost 1 ger to 2 western allied. Despite having 30-35% of the tanks and spGUN of the tiger and panther varites by 1944.

While the front armour of the tiger and panthers was impressive no tank was invulnerable. The panther could easily be des by a side shot with the 75mm sherman. Even a sturat with its 37mm gun could pen the panthers side arm. The same could be said about the the tigers side armour with the 76mm and 17lb CW guns.

The effectivness of the ger tanks and crews really come into question because of the relativly low exchange ratio. But when you consider the tanks were oposed by many more allied tanks you can see where the adv still lies. The west and rus had at least a 4 to 1 num adv in tanks and spguns from 43 on. Meaning each individual ger tank and crew was almost an order of magnitude better (8-12x) at killing tanks then either an avg sov or western tank. And that was done with the avg ger tank and crew not jus the elite tigers the avg tank if you include spGUNs was the panzer IV followed by the stug III and panther.

Also most of the elite tank aces got thier inital kills on something else besides tigers and panthers. Witman started with the arty and ealry stugs with the 75mm L24 gun.
Do you know if the 1 to 2 kills in Normandy takes into account German tanks destroyed by Allied air power? I know the Gemans took large losses from air attack.

LT

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#11

Post by Darrin » 11 Jun 2003, 06:26

Lawrence Tandy wrote:Do you know if the 1 to 2 kills in Normandy takes into account German tanks destroyed by Allied air power? I know the Gemans took large losses from air attack.

Yes it includes tanks des to any and all reasons. The number of ger tanks des due to air was smaller than most imagine it may have been as small as 10% see normandy 44 by zetterling. But the number of tanks des due to allied weapons of some sort was close to 60% at most. The rest were abandoned or des by crew probably loses casued by air attacks on the ger rear. Also may be due to sudden continous retreats in august.

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Lawrence Tandy
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#12

Post by Lawrence Tandy » 11 Jun 2003, 06:35

Thanks Darrin.

LT

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#13

Post by Hoolaman » 13 Jun 2003, 11:29

Don't forget even the mighty tiger and king tiger tanks were destroyed by various means, even if they were just so badly damaged that their crew abandoned and destroyed them.

So the German tankers still had to have good skills to avoid this fate, as there is more than one way to skin a cat (tank). :)

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Lawrence Tandy
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#14

Post by Lawrence Tandy » 13 Jun 2003, 21:52

Also, in many later engagements, panzer crews were finding themselves vastly outnumbered in some situations. True, they could kill at a distance, but if you have enough tanks, some will get close enough to get hits that penetrate. Especially later in the war with upgunned shermans, TD's and heavier Soviet armour mounting more powerful guns.

LT

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