Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Peter89
Member
Posts: 2142
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Europe

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Peter89 » 09 Oct 2022 10:55

Ironmachine wrote:
09 Oct 2022 08:01
ljadw wrote:What Germany, Britain ,the US sent to Spain during the war,had EVEN less importance than what US and Britain sent to the Soviets during the war .
What Germany, Britain, the US sent to Spain during the war was vitally important for the survival of the Spaniards during the war. All the oil, most of the food, etc. that Spain used during the war came from abroad.
As far as I know, the majority of the food was produced in Spain, but deliveries were crucial for survival.
Ironmachine wrote:
09 Oct 2022 08:01
ljadw wrote:Last point : von Weiszsäcker ( deputy of Ribbentrop ) said that the entry of Spain had no practical value .
Other Germans had different opinions. The simple fact that Germany was negotiating the entry of Spain in the war clearly shows it had some value.
This is a well-researched rift in German foreign policy - which actually makes this thread's question near impossible to answer. There were two lines in German foreign policy towards the Mediterraneum: the "Ribbentrop-Linie" had Fritz Grobba, Hans-Ulrich Granow, Rudolf Rahn, Hellmuth Felmy, Franz von Papen, Theodor Habicht, Ernst Wilhelm Bohle, Wilhelm Keppler, Hans-Joachim von Ribbentrop and Hermann Göring in its ranks, although with varying commitment and influence. The "Weizsäcker-Linie" had Werner Otto von Hentig, Curt Prüfer, Erwin Ettel, Wilhelm Melchers, Wilhelm Kohlhaas, Ernst Woermann, Günther Pawelke, Werner Junck, Wilhelm Canaris, Hans Speidel, Albert Kesselring and Ernst von Weizsäcker.

The "Ribbentrop-Linie" saw the way to victory over Britain via the demolishion of their colonial empire; inciting rebellions on its colonies and direct attacks on Britain's strongpoints.

The "Weizsäcker-Linie" saw it as a terrible distraction and emphasized Germany's ability to make war either on the mainland or to go against Britain vis-á-vis.

Interestingly, this rift ran through the German military and state decades before and after WW2. It had little to do with the exact people or the exact comments in 1940/1941; Hitler was unable and uncapable to decide in this matter; thus, he hesitated. Having hesitated, he lost the opportunity.
Last edited by Peter89 on 09 Oct 2022 19:14, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3775
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 09 Oct 2022 13:28

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:13
This would not help Spain to transport the German deliveries overall in the country : half of Spanish locs had been lost and rails, fishplates, etc would not replace these locs .
The 50% of the locos that survived could not run on destroyed track, destroyed bridges, destroyed railyards.

Having 100% locos is useless, when the tracks the are to run on have been destroyed or damaged.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14457
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 09 Oct 2022 13:55

Repaired tracks,bridges and railroads could not be used without locs .

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3775
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 09 Oct 2022 13:59

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:29
It is more than doubtful if Spain needed what it demanded,as it did not get what it demanded .but still not collapsed .
Spain demanded what it needed to fight in the war and not collapse.
Spain had what it needed to not fight in the war and not collapse.
But, not fighting in the war was not what Germany was asking Spain to do.
ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:29
What Germany, Britain ,the US sent to Spain during the war,had EVEN less importance than what US and Britain sent to the Soviets during the war .
What Germany, Britain, and the US kept Spain out of the war.
What Britain and the US sent to the Soviets kept them in the war.
However, keeping the Soviets in was likely more important than keeping Spain out.

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:29
On 14 September 1940 Hitler told Brauchitz and Halder that he would promise Spain everything it wanted even if he could not deliver it .
There is where you fail...if. Germany could deliver, Hitler did not want to.

Had Germany not been able to deliver it would be...
Would promise Spain everything it wanted even though he could not deliver.

Nasty word "if."

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:29
Hitler would PROMISE and he would LIE .
Hitler did not promise and he did not lie.

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:29
We don't know if Spain needed what it demanded,and we don't know what it received .We only know that it survived the war and that the allied and German deliveries had no effect on this .
Well, we do know what it demanded was needed to fight in the war.

We do know what it received...Not enough to fight in the war.

Allied and German deliveries did have a great effect on this.

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 07:29
Last point : von Weiszsäcker ( deputy of Ribbentrop ) said that the entry of Spain had no practical value .
von Weiszsäcker's opinion, shared by some Germans, but not by other Germans.

That's the thing with opinions, everybody has them, and they tend to disagree as to which one is correct.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3775
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 09 Oct 2022 14:01

ljadw wrote:
09 Oct 2022 13:55
Repaired tracks,bridges and railroads could not be used without locs .
100% locos could not be used on destroyed/damaged tracks, bridges, and yards.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14457
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 09 Oct 2022 14:34

In 1942 58% of the Spanish energy was provided by domestic electrical sources;42 % came from abroad ,mostly from the US . German fuel exports to Spain were meaningless . They were 1,5 % of the value of imports in 1940,0,2 % in 1941,0,9 % in 1942,21,6 % in 1943 and 13 % in 1944 .
Spain increased also the price of its exports to Germany and paid less for its imports .
In August 1940 Spain was hurt by a US fuel embargo and asked Germany for the well known quantities of gasoline,fuel oil and coal which it did not obtain .And Spain got again fuel from the US .
Spain imported ( in pesetas ) more from the US and Britain than from Germany :
for 1941,1942 and 1943 goods from Germany for a value of 2,343 billion pesetas and from the US and Britain 2,700 billion pesetas .
The source is : The Economy of Neutrality Tables 3.3 etc, PP 174 a,f. and 200 a.f.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3775
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 09 Oct 2022 16:07

I believe you mean this source;
The economics of neutrality: Spain, Sweden and Switzerland in the Second World War

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 09 Oct 2022 17:37

ljadw wrote:In 1942 58% of the Spanish energy was provided by domestic electrical sources;42 % came from abroad ,mostly from the US . German fuel exports to Spain were meaningless . They were 1,5 % of the value of imports in 1940,0,2 % in 1941,0,9 % in 1942,21,6 % in 1943 and 13 % in 1944 .
Spain increased also the price of its exports to Germany and paid less for its imports .
In August 1940 Spain was hurt by a US fuel embargo and asked Germany for the well known quantities of gasoline,fuel oil and coal which it did not obtain .And Spain got again fuel from the US .
Spain imported ( in pesetas ) more from the US and Britain than from Germany :
for 1941,1942 and 1943 goods from Germany for a value of 2,343 billion pesetas and from the US and Britain 2,700 billion pesetas .
The source is : The Economy of Neutrality Tables 3.3 etc, PP 174 a,f. and 200 a.f.
That can be true, but in no way does it back up your claim. So I will say it again: ljadw, I'm still waiting for your evidence that "Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfillled and that's why they demanded them".

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14457
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 09 Oct 2022 20:30

We know what Hitler said to Brauchitz and Halder : he said that he would lie to Spain .
We know that Spain did not receive the amounts of fertilizers that it demanded .24000 tons a week during 10 weeks .
We know that Spain did not receive monthly 117000 tons of fuels it demanded .
We know that Spain did not receive the 250000 tons of grains it demanded .Source for these figures is :The Economic relations between Nazi Germany and Franco Spain 1936-1945 Table 21 .
There was no prove that Spain needed these goods .
The Germans said that they could not deliver them .
We know and they knew that the amount of fuels they could expect and they received from Germany was insignificant : in 1940 the import of fuels from Germany was only 1,5 % of the total imports .In 1941 it was 0,2 %. It was not better for food .
If you know that you receive only peanuts of food and fuels from Germany ,while you get big amounts from the US ,and suddenly you ask for enormous deliveries of food and fuel,there is a hidden motive behind your demand :and the motive s that you know what the Germans want ,but you don't want i. Thus : you demand the impossible as condition for your entry in the war so that you can refuse it when the Germans will ask for it .
In August 1939 the Italians did the same .With the same result : they had an excuse for not joining the war on German side .
It is a truc as old as the hills .Saying : we are not ready, but if you give us what we need and demand, we can be ready in the far future ,means : we will never be ready . If the Germans said : yes,we will give what you want, Spain would invent aan other excuse .
It is keeping up appearances, very popular in politics .
And it was the same for the Germans : if they could deliver or if Spain asked less,that will not mean that there would be a deal .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14457
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 09 Oct 2022 20:42

Takao wrote:
09 Oct 2022 16:07
I believe you mean this source;
The economics of neutrality: Spain, Sweden and Switzerland in the Second World War
Yes .
Sadly enough it gives no figures about the amount of goods (tonnages ) ,probably because these are not available .
But it is obvious,after consulting the source,that the political importance of Spanish-German trade during the war is much overrated .
Italy joined the Entente in 1915 ,not because of Allied promises of deliveries of fuels,etc , but because of allied promises of territorial gains after the war and of the Italian conviction that Germany would lose .Germany could not give Italy what it wanted but the Entente promised the Italians a lot of things after the war.Things it never received .
Spain was in June 1940 not convinced of a German victory and knew that it would get nothing if Germany won .
In October 1940 the chances for Germany to win were going down very fast and Spain would get nothing if it joined the Axis .
Thus when Spain said : we can join the war when we are ready and when you have given us everything we need, it is obvious that Spain meant : we will not enter the war .

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Oct 2022 07:40

ljadw wrote:We know what Hitler said to Brauchitz and Halder : he said that he would lie to Spain .
We know that Spain did not receive the amounts of fertilizers that it demanded .24000 tons a week during 10 weeks .
We know that Spain did not receive monthly 117000 tons of fuels it demanded .
We know that Spain did not receive the 250000 tons of grains it demanded .Source for these figures is :The Economic relations between Nazi Germany and Franco Spain 1936-1945 Table 21 .
There was no prove that Spain needed these goods .
None of this has anything to do with your statement that "Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfillled and that's why they demanded them".
ljadw wrote:The Germans said that they could not deliver them .
But AFAIK they did not say that to Spain, so it has nothing to do with your statement that "Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfillled and that's why they demanded them".
Feel free to post evidence to the contrary.
ljadw wrote:We know and they knew that the amount of fuels they could expect and they received from Germany was insignificant : in 1940 the import of fuels from Germany was only 1,5 % of the total imports .In 1941 it was 0,2 %. It was not better for food .
No. They (Spain) knew that the amount of fuels they received from Germany was small. That in no way means they knew they could expect nothing more from Germany.
ljadw wrote: If you know that you receive only peanuts of food and fuels from Germany ,while you get big amounts from the US ,and suddenly you ask for enormous deliveries of food and fuel,there is a hidden motive behind your demand :and the motive s that you know what the Germans want ,but you don't want i.
There are simpler motivations: for example, that as soon as you join Germany in the war the amounts received from the US are going to be zero, so it's only rational to ask for a substitute. Again, show the evidence that supports your statement.
ljadw wrote:Thus : you demand the impossible as condition for your entry in the war so that you can refuse it when the Germans will ask for it.
It's quite stupid to put a condition to refuse to do something that you offered to do when no one had asked you to do it. Spain offered to join the war before Germany asked, and from the first moment demanded "the impossible". It's not logical unless Spain did not want to joing the war even in that moment, and in that case it's not logical that Spain raised the question when Germany was thinking about other matters. That's why your argument is devoid of logic. You could easily solve the logical stalemate by showing your evidence that "Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfillled and that's why they demanded them", but it seems you have none.
ljadw wrote:In August 1939 the Italians did the same .With the same result : they had an excuse for not joining the war on German side .
And in 1940 the Italians joined the war without considering the German opinion, but Spain did not. So what? What the Italians did or didn't do in 1939 has nothing to do with Spain.
ljadw wrote:It is a truc as old as the hills .Saying : we are not ready, but if you give us what we need and demand, we can be ready in the far future ,means : we will never be ready .
What is as old as the hills is your habit in this forum: you post a statement and, when asked for evidence to back it up, you keep moving the goalposts and changing the subject. Remember the forum rules:
5. Back up your claims
[...]
  • If another member challenge one of your claims, you must cite a source for your claim.
  • If you make a claim that is obviously controversial, you should cite a source immediately.
ljadw wrote:If the Germans said : yes,we will give what you want, Spain would invent aan other excuse .
You have failed to prove Spain used an excuse, so you will have a a hard time proving that Spain would invent "another excuse".
ljadw wrote:It is keeping up appearances, very popular in politics .
It's what you are doing in this thread, actually.
ljadw wrote:And it was the same for the Germans : if they could deliver or if Spain asked less,that will not mean that there would be a deal .
And here goes ljadw, again moving the goalposts.
The issue I want you to adress is: "Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfillled and that's why they demanded them."
So for the umpteenth time I ask you: what is your evidence that "Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfillled and that's why they demanded them"?

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Oct 2022 07:51

ljadw wrote:But it is obvious,after consulting the source,that the political importance of Spanish-German trade during the war is much overrated .
Italy joined the Entente in 1915 ,not because of Allied promises of deliveries of fuels,etc , but because of allied promises of territorial gains after the war and of the Italian conviction that Germany would lose .Germany could not give Italy what it wanted but the Entente promised the Italians a lot of things after the war.Things it never received .
Again, this has nothing to do with Spain in WWII.
ljadw wrote:Spain was in June 1940 not convinced of a German victory and knew that it would get nothing if Germany won .
That's simply your opinion. In June 1940 Spain actually offered to join the war. That's pretty difficult to reconcile with your opinion. Maybe you can offer a source to back up your claim? Not that I'm going to hold my breath while I wait for it, however.
ljadw wrote:In October 1940 the chances for Germany to win were going down very fast and Spain would get nothing if it joined the Axis .
Yes, and that's why at Hendaye Spain fought to obtain an agreement that left the decision to join the war in Spanish hands
ljadw wrote:Thus when Spain said : we can join the war when we are ready and when you have given us everything we need, it is obvious that Spain meant : we will not enter the war .
If it was so obvious, it was because Spain was not using excuses, wasn't it?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14457
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 08:03

The following is from the Avalon Project
The Spanish Government and the Axis
Note 6
Notes covering the interview between the Führer and Count Ciano in the Presence of the Reichs Foreign Minister and the Secretary of State Meissner in Berlin on September 28 1940

Hitler said the following
''Spanish Proposals were
1 Germany is to deliver for the coming year 400000-700000 tons of grains .
2 Germany is to deliver all the fuel
3 Germany is to deliver the lacking equipment for the army
4 Germany is to put up artillery and tanks, as well as special weapons and special troops for the conquest of Gibraltar
5 Germany is to give over all of Morocco and besides that,Oran,and is to help her get a border revision in the west of Rio de Oro
6 Spain is to propose to Germany, in return,her friendship .''
Hitler said also
'''...as a German one feels toward the Spanish almost like a Jew . ...''
The comments of Ciano were going in the same direction .
My questions
1 Was Hitler's comment wrong ?
2 Were the Spanish proposals realistic ?
The answer on question 2 is NO :
see point 5 : Hitler said that if he said yes on point 5 , France would resume the war on the side of Britain .
3 Why did Spain ask things who were impossible ?
Answer : to have an excuse for not entering the war .
The Spanish proposals would have as result (if Hitler accepted them ) that and Felix and Barbarossa would be cancelled/delayed .
If Hitler did not accept them ,Felix would be cancelled .
4 Did Spain know that their proposals were impossible for Germany to accept ?
Answer : yes : they knew what the French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain .Hitler knew what the French reactions would be ,thus Spain also knew it .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14457
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 08:15

Ironmachine wrote:
10 Oct 2022 07:51

Again, this has nothing to do with Spain in WWII.
In June 1940 Spain actually offered to join the war.
[/quote]

It has everything to do with Spain in WW2:in 1915 Italy entered the war after the Entente promised her a lot of things,as Trieste, a part of the Ottoman Empire . But after the war, these promises were not kept .
Spain would not make the same mistake in 1940 and wanted that the promises would be kept before she would enter the war .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war AT HER CONDITIONS, but did not join the war .It was only a feint .

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3775
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 10 Oct 2022 11:18

ljadw wrote:
10 Oct 2022 08:15

It has everything to do with Spain in WW2:in 1915 Italy entered the war after the Entente promised her a lot of things,as Trieste, a part of the Ottoman Empire . But after the war, these promises were not kept .
Spain would not make the same mistake in 1940 and wanted that the promises would be kept before she would enter the war .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war AT HER CONDITIONS, but did not join the war .It was only a feint .
You do realize that both Spain AND Germany were acting, here, in the role of the Entente...offering only promises. Spain promised to enter the war at some later unspecified date, while Germany promised to deliver the goods.

The Entente-Italy outcome has no bearing on the Spain-German outcome. As Germany is not the Entente and Spain is not Italy.
The Spanish-German mutual mistrust was very real, but not for the reason you put fourth.

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”