Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Oct 2022 07:40

Takao wrote:Put up or shut up time. I call your bluff.
Welcome to the club!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2022 08:59

Ironmachine wrote:
11 Oct 2022 07:37
ljadw wrote:Hitler could not send 500000 men to invade Morocco over the sea or through Spain .He had no fleet in the Mediterranean ,
And why would Hitler have to send 500000 men to invade Morocco?
ljadw wrote:FYI : the distance Madrid-Agadir is some 6000 km .
Actually, the distance Madrid-Agadir is about 1520 km by road and about 1200 in a straight line. Why are I not surprised that you are lying again? :lol:
By the way, the distance Berlin-Varsovia is
ljadw wrote:Spain could not invade Morocco and demanded that Germany would do it and give it to Spain ,and AFTER this,when the war was over, Spain would declare war on France .
And why would Spain declare war on France after obtaining Morocco? You may be crazy, but the Spanish authorities of the time were not.
ljadw wrote:And, not only could Spain not invade Morocco, but if it received Morocco from France or Germany , it could even not conserve Morocco .
See what happened to the Spanish Army in North Morocco .
Yes, what happened to the Spanish Army in North Morocco? AFAIK, Spain conserved Spanish Morocco until the independence of Morocco, so your argument seems to be a bit stupid.
ljadw wrote:Spain asked only Morocco to have an excuse to be able to say to Germany : we can't enter the war .
That's only your opinion, and your opinion, without evidence to support it, has no value as proof. Back up your claim! Show evidence!
1 How much men did France need to occupy Morocco ? They had more than 100000 men in Morocco in 1919 And how much time did they need ? 22 years .And Germany had no 22 years .
3 Spain promised to enter the war on the German side : that means a DOW on France, which could happen only after the defeat of France by Germany .
4 At the battle of Annual, Spain lost more than 13000 men . How would Spain occupy and pacify the whole of Morocco that costed France 22 years to occupy and pacify ?
5 Spain asked Morocco while it knew that France would not give up Morocco,thus that it could not have Morocco and Morocco was one of the Spanish demands for a DOW on France .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2022 09:04

2 The length of the coast of Morocco is some 2500 km and an invading (Spanish or German ) army had to advance along the coast,because of supply problems .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 11 Oct 2022 11:44

Proof that Germany was going to invade Morocco...You have been asked several times and had provided none.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 11 Oct 2022 12:06

Ironmachine wrote:
11 Oct 2022 07:40
Takao wrote:Put up or shut up time. I call your bluff.
Welcome to the club!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Long time member. He is Ljad over on WW2F.com but thankfully has not been active since 2017.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 11 Oct 2022 19:23

Takao wrote:
11 Oct 2022 11:44
Proof that Germany was going to invade Morocco...You have been asked several times and had provided none.
Spain asked Morocco . It could not conquer Morocco itself . Who remained ?Germany .
Besides : I did not say that Germany would conquer Morocco : I said that Spain demanded Morocco and if France refused to give it away,there was only one possibility: a German invasion . As this was impossible,Spain would not get Morocco .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 11 Oct 2022 19:42

You said Germany would invade Morocco...Let's see your proof that Germany would invade Morocco.

You have been asked several times for proof, but have not provided any proof.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Oct 2022 07:53

1 How much men did France need to occupy Morocco ? They had more than 100000 men in Morocco in 1919 And how much time did they need ? 22 years .And Germany had no 22 years .
The French hgad only 59.000 men in Morocco in 1924. Anyway, how many men and how much time France needed to occupy Morocco has nothing to do with the points being adressed here.
In any case, Germany had no need to occupy Morocco, at leat not in 1940.
ljadw wrote:3 Spain promised to enter the war on the German side : that means a DOW on France, which could happen only after the defeat of France by Germany .
France signed the armistice of 22 June 1940. Why would have Spain had to declare war on France after that date when France had already surrendered to Germany?
ljadw wrote:4 At the battle of Annual, Spain lost more than 13000 men . How would Spain occupy and pacify the whole of Morocco that costed France 22 years to occupy and pacify ?
And at the battle of Uarga, France lost about 2500 dead, 7500 wounded and 1200 MIA, but they kept Morocco. So what?
Anyway, again I tell you that this has nothing to do with the point I want you to adress.
ljadw wrote:5 Spain asked Morocco while it knew that France would not give up Morocco,thus that it could not have Morocco and Morocco was one of the Spanish demands for a DOW on France .
Again, your opinion about what Spain knew is not a proof of what Spain knew.

I repeat: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Oct 2022 08:01

ljadw wrote:2 The length of the coast of Morocco is some 2500 km and an invading (Spanish or German ) army had to advance along the coast,because of supply problems .
The number 2 you have put before that statement means that this has something to do with your lie that "the distance Madrid-Agadir is some 6000 km"?
At least this time you have posted a truth, the length of Morocco coastline is some 2500 km. So what? What has this to do with the point that I have repeatedly asked you to back up with sources? Stop moving the posts and provide evidence. I have challenged one of your claims, so per the forum rules you must cite a source for your claim.
I repeat: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands purposedly so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 16 Oct 2022 11:50

1 The Germans said that they could not fulfill the Spanish demands .
2 Spain knew that Germany could not fulfill their demands : monthly 600000 tons of grain, which is daily 20 trains ,was impossible .Especially as their demand dated from February 1941 and should start in March 1941 .
3 Spain did not get this grain,but still did not collaps, thus Spain did not need this grain .
4 If you demand something that you don't need and you can't get and in exchange you promise to enter the war at an unknown date (Spain refused to say that if its demands were fulfilled, it would join the Axis ) it is obvious that your demands are an excuse to not join the Axis .
About the distance Madrid -Agadir, I see that I forgot to add ''going and returning '' ,but your figures are also wrong ,as the today distance Madrid-Ceuta is 800 km ( it was bigger 80 years ago ) and the coast length is more than 2000 km ,it is obvious that going and returning was some 6000 km .
And, the Spanish demand that Germany would
A conquer Morocco
B give it than to Spain ,while Spain had not the means to occupy Morocco
was also something totally impossible and absurd :Germany could conquer Morocco only after the defeat of France and Britain ,and than, a Spanish entry would not be needed ,thus a German conquest of Morocco would not be needed .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 16 Oct 2022 11:56

Takao wrote:
11 Oct 2022 19:42
You said Germany would invade Morocco...Let's see your proof that Germany would invade Morocco.

You have been asked several times for proof, but have not provided any proof.
Spain asked that Germany would give her Morocco, this means that Germany had to conquer Morocco .
If Germany did not conquer Morocco and did not give it to Spain, Spain would not join the war ,which would already be over .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 16 Oct 2022 12:02

Ironmachine wrote:
12 Oct 2022 07:53
1 How much men did France need to occupy Morocco ? They had more than 100000 men in Morocco in 1919 And how much time did they need ? 22 years .And Germany had no 22 years .
The French hgad only 59.000 men in Morocco in 1924. Anyway, how many men and how much time France needed to occupy Morocco has nothing to do with the points being adressed here.
In any case, Germany had no need to occupy Morocco, at leat not in 1940.
ljadw wrote:3 Spain promised to enter the war on the German side : that means a DOW on France, which could happen only after the defeat of France by Germany .
France signed the armistice of 22 June 1940. Why would have Spain had to declare war on France after that date when France had already surrendered to Germany?



SIGH
Spain did not declare war on France before June 22 1940.After June 22 1940,it said that it would declare war on France after its demands would be fulfilled, somewhere in 1941 or 1942 .
Its demands could only be fulfilled after the war was over .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Oct 2022 15:22

ljadw wrote:1 The Germans said that they could not fulfill the Spanish demands .
Nothing to do with the point you are being asked to back up with evidence.
2 Spain knew that Germany could not fulfill their demands : monthly
600000 tons of grain, which is daily 20 trains ,was impossible .Especially as their demand dated from February 1941 and should start in March 1941 .
That's what you have to prove, and you have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence or source.
ljadw wrote:3 Spain did not get this grain,but still did not collaps, thus Spain did not need this grain .
Nothing to do with the point you are being asked to back up with evidence.
ljadw wrote:4 If you demand something that you don't need and you can't get and in exchange you promise to enter the war at an unknown date (Spain refused to say that if its demands were fulfilled, it would join the Axis ) it is obvious that your demands are an excuse to not join the Axis .
It's not evident in any way. Provide evidence that the demands were an excuse to not join the Axis.
ljadw wrote:About the distance Madrid -Agadir, I see that I forgot to add ''going and returning ''
Even considering going and returning, you are wrong. The distance Madrid-Agadir-Madrid is not 6000 km.
ljadw wrote:,but your figures are also wrong ,as the today distance Madrid-Ceuta is 800 km ( it was bigger 80 years ago ) and the coast length is more than 2000 km ,it is obvious that going and returning was some 6000 km .
Not true.
The distance between Ceuta and Agadir by sea (as you mention the coast length) is, per PUB. 151 - Distances Between Ports prepared and published by the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency of the United States, Eleventh Edition, 2001 (available here: https://maddenmaritime.files.wordpress. ... -ports.pdf) is 446 nautical miles, or 825 km. Adding 800 km from Madrid to Ceuta that gives a total of 1625 km, or 3250 km going and returning. By road, the distance Ceuta-Agadir is about 860 km, so adding the 800 km from Madrid to Ceuta, it's a total of 1660 km, or 3320 km going and returning. In any case, far far less than your 6,000 km.
Did you forget to add something again?
So give me an L? Give me an I? Give me an A? Give me an R? What's that spell?
And, the Spanish demand that Germany would
A conquer Morocco
B give it than to Spain ,while Spain had not the means to occupy Morocco
was also something totally impossible and absurd :Germany could conquer Morocco only after the defeat of France and Britain ,and than, a Spanish entry would not be needed ,thus a German conquest of Morocco would not be needed .
Spain never demanded that Germany would conquer Morocco. Again, provide evidence of that if you have it.

I repeat: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands purposedly so to have an excuse for not entering the war.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 16 Oct 2022 16:01, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Oct 2022 15:25

ljadw wrote:Spain did not declare war on France before June 22 1940.After June 22 1940,it said that it would declare war on France after its demands would be fulfilled, somewhere in 1941 or 1942 .
Its demands could only be fulfilled after the war was over .
Spain had no need to declare war on France as long as there was an armistice between Germany and France. What's more, Spain had no need to declare war on France even if the war is resumed between France and Germany. However, this has nothing to do with the point I have repeatedly asked you to back up with evidence.
So again:
Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 16 Oct 2022 18:34

I have given the evidence , more than once .
Germany knew that it could not fulfill the Spanish demands , thus Spain knew it also .Spain made these demands and did not enter the war . It could not defend its territory in case of war ,but still proposed to join the war at its own conditions .
If Spain remained neutral,it would get nothing .
If Spain entered the war, it could conquer nothing, Germany would have to do it ,which it could not and give it to Spain,which it would not do .
This proves that the Spanish proposition to join the war was not sincere ,especially as its entry in the war was subordinated to its demands, who could be fulfilled only after the war .
Stalin said at Yalta that he would join the war against Japan if he could conserve what he wanted to occupy :Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands .
Stalin said not that the US should conquer Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands and that they should give it to the USSR after the war .
Spain said that Germany should conquer Morocco and Oran (what Germany could do only after the war ) and give it after the war to Spain that would remain neutral til it would get Morocco/Oran after the war .
These demands were impossible for Germany to accept and to fulfill. Germany could have Morocco/Oran only years after the war ..And Spain knew it but still asked them

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