Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 16 Oct 2022 19:00

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:56
Takao wrote:
11 Oct 2022 19:42
You said Germany would invade Morocco...Let's see your proof that Germany would invade Morocco.

You have been asked several times for proof, but have not provided any proof.
Spain asked that Germany would give her Morocco, this means that Germany had to conquer Morocco .
If Germany did not conquer Morocco and did not give it to Spain, Spain would not join the war ,which would already be over .
SIGH...
Germany did not need to conquer Morocco. Germany did not even need for 1 Germany soldier to take Morocco. All Germany had to do was ask for Morocco as part of France"s surrender agreement.

France was in no position to restart a war with Germany.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 16 Oct 2022 19:10

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 12:02
SIGH
Spain did not declare war on France before June 22 1940.After June 22 1940,it said that it would declare war on France after its demands would be fulfilled, somewhere in 1941 or 1942 .
Its demands could only be fulfilled after the war was over .
DOUBLE SIGH...

Spain never said that it would declare war on France.

Spain never said it would join the war in 1941 or 1942. In fact, Spain never gave or set a date.

Spain's ambiguous promises gave Hitler no incentive to meet the Spanish demands.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 16 Oct 2022 20:00

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
1 The Germans said that they could not fulfill the Spanish demands .
Correction...The Germans would not fulfill Spanish demands.
ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
2 Spain knew that Germany could not fulfill their demands : monthly 600000 tons of grain, which is daily 20 trains ,was impossible .Especially as their demand dated from February 1941 and should start in March 1941 .
Germany would not fulfill Spanish demands, because Spain never gave the Germans any good reason to fulfill Spanish demands.
ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
3 Spain did not get this grain,but still did not collaps, thus Spain did not need this grain .
Spain was at peace, and as events unfolded, remained at peace.

The demand was not for what Spain needed in time of peace, but what Spain needed in time of war.

Thus, that Spain did not get the grain and did not collapse is immaterial to the matter at hand.

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
4 If you demand something that you don't need and you can't get and in exchange you promise to enter the war at an unknown date (Spain refused to say that if its demands were fulfilled, it would join the Axis ) it is obvious that your demands are an excuse to not join the Axis .
Spain did not need to create excuses not to join the Axis.
It's Army was garbage, it's air force was garbage, and it's navy was garbage. None of which was going to be changed in the foreseeable future.
ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
About the distance Madrid -Agadir, I see that I forgot to add ''going and returning ''
You also forgot how to spell Morocco...You apparently spelled it M A R T I N I Q U E. The French colony is slightly over 6000 kilometers from Madrid.

Now, if you truly mean the distance from Madrid to Agadir...6,000 kilometers is going to, returning, going to again, and returning again. Madrid to Agadir is only about 1,500 kilometers.
ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
,but your figures are also wrong ,as the today distance Madrid-Ceuta is 800 km ( it was bigger 80 years ago )
Actually, today, the distance Madrid - Ceuta is about 520 kilometers...Has not changed much since the 1930's.



ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
and the coast length is more than 2000 km
The coast length is immaterial...As Madrid is not on the coast.
Perhaps, in 'wacky world" Madrid IS on the coast. But, it is not in this one.

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
,it is obvious that going and returning was some 6000 km .
It is obvious, that it is about half that distance.
But you are not known for noticing the obvious. Obviously.

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 11:50
And, the Spanish demand that Germany would
A conquer Morocco
B give it than to Spain ,while Spain had not the means to occupy Morocco
was also something totally impossible and absurd :Germany could conquer Morocco only after the defeat of France and Britain ,and than, a Spanish entry would not be needed ,thus a German conquest of Morocco would not be needed .
Again, Germany did not have to conquer Morocco.

France was defeated, Germany simply had to ask France to cede Morocco to Germany.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 16 Oct 2022 20:43

And France would refuse to cede Morocco :if Germany tried to get Morocco (which was impossible ) ,French North Africa would join Britain .
This is proved by the fact that Germany did not demand Morocco.
And about the coastline of Morocco : it is obvious that you never went to Morocco : the roads and railroads in Morocco in 1940 could never ,never supply a big German occupation army . To supply this army , Germany would need intact ports (which the French would have destroyed ) and a big transport fleet (which they had not ) and a big war fleet to protect the merchant vessels against the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force and the French fleet in the Mediterranean .
Besides : Germany would first have to capture Gibraltar and Felix could only happen in 1941 or even later,much later,as Felix and Barbarossa could not happen simultaneously .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 16 Oct 2022 20:47

Takao wrote:
16 Oct 2022 19:00


France was in no position to restart a war with Germany.
I will correct this one : GERMANY was in no position to restart a war with France ,as if it restarted the war,the French colonial empire would join Britain and De Gaulle .What it did in November 1942 when Germany invaded the ''Free Zone ''.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 16 Oct 2022 21:12

ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 20:47
Takao wrote:
16 Oct 2022 19:00


France was in no position to restart a war with Germany.
I will correct this one : GERMANY was in no position to restart a war with France ,as if it restarted the war,the French colonial empire would join Britain and De Gaulle .What it did in November 1942 when Germany invaded the ''Free Zone ''.
I will correct your correction...

The French colonial empire we are talking about ceased fighting and joined the Allies on November 10, 1944, as Operation Torch was drawing to it's inevitable conclusion.

GERMANY invaded the "Free Zone" on November 11, 1944. One day AFTER the French Colonial empire ceased resisting the WAllies.

Guess this is another "forgot" on your part.

You are getting quite forgetful.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5803
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Oct 2022 06:50

ljadw wrote:I have given the evidence , more than once .
Germany knew that it could not fulfill the Spanish demands , thus Spain knew it also .Spain made these demands and did not enter the war . It could not defend its territory in case of war ,but still proposed to join the war at its own conditions .
If Spain remained neutral,it would get nothing .
If Spain entered the war, it could conquer nothing, Germany would have to do it ,which it could not and give it to Spain,which it would not do .
This proves that the Spanish proposition to join the war was not sincere ,especially as its entry in the war was subordinated to its demands, who could be fulfilled only after the war .
Stalin said at Yalta that he would join the war against Japan if he could conserve what he wanted to occupy :Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands .
Stalin said not that the US should conquer Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands and that they should give it to the USSR after the war .
Spain said that Germany should conquer Morocco and Oran (what Germany could do only after the war ) and give it after the war to Spain that would remain neutral til it would get Morocco/Oran after the war .
These demands were impossible for Germany to accept and to fulfill. Germany could have Morocco/Oran only years after the war ..And Spain knew it but still asked them
That's no evidence of anything. It's simply your opinion on the matter. And your opinion, by the way, seems to be that Spain knew its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany because... Spain knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany! :lol:
The forum rules (app.php/rules) are clear about this:
5. Back up your claims
[...]
If another member challenge one of your claims, you must cite a source for your claim.
If you make a claim that is obviously controversial, you should cite a source immediately
I have challenged your claim, which is obviously controversial as many posters in this forum and many sources in the literature disagree with you. So you must cite a source for your claim. And no, your groundless opinion is not a source.
So again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 17 Oct 2022 07:12

Takao wrote:
16 Oct 2022 21:12
ljadw wrote:
16 Oct 2022 20:47
Takao wrote:
16 Oct 2022 19:00


France was in no position to restart a war with Germany.
I will correct this one : GERMANY was in no position to restart a war with France ,as if it restarted the war,the French colonial empire would join Britain and De Gaulle .What it did in November 1942 when Germany invaded the ''Free Zone ''.
I will correct your correction...

The French colonial empire we are talking about ceased fighting and joined the Allies on November 10, 1944, as Operation Torch was drawing to it's inevitable conclusion.

GERMANY invaded the "Free Zone" on November 11, 1944. One day AFTER the French Colonial empire ceased resisting the WAllies.

Guess this is another "forgot" on your part.

You are getting quite forgetful.
NO : In June 1940 Germany could have conquered the whole of France ,but wisely decided not to do it,as if it did it,the result would be that the French colonial empire would have joined Britain to continue the war .
Germany invaded the Free Zone in November 1942 after and because the French colonial empire joined the allies .If Germany had invaded the Free Zone earlier, what it did not do, the French colonial empire would have joined the allies earlier .
If in 1940,or 1941 Germany had invaded the French Colonial Empire, it would have joined Britain : people as Weygand in Algeria and Nogues in Morocco,would never have admitted a German presence in North Africa .The Germans succeeded to force Vichy into firing Weygand, but the successor of Weygand was as anti German as Weygand .
Nogues told Petain on 18 June 1940 that he would continue the war in N A but later remained loyal to Vichy, as long as the Free Zone was not occupied by the Germans .When Petain became de facto a German prisoner, French NA resumed the war .
Besides, already before 1942 parts of the French Colonial Empire had joined Britain :French Equatorial Africa joined De Gaulle in August 1940 and there was nothing the Germans could do against it .
The conquest of Morocco ,which was militarily impossible, would also be politically suicidal for Germany .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 17 Oct 2022 07:26

Ironmachine wrote:
17 Oct 2022 06:50
ljadw wrote:I have given the evidence , more than once .
Germany knew that it could not fulfill the Spanish demands , thus Spain knew it also .Spain made these demands and did not enter the war . It could not defend its territory in case of war ,but still proposed to join the war at its own conditions .
If Spain remained neutral,it would get nothing .
If Spain entered the war, it could conquer nothing, Germany would have to do it ,which it could not and give it to Spain,which it would not do .
This proves that the Spanish proposition to join the war was not sincere ,especially as its entry in the war was subordinated to its demands, who could be fulfilled only after the war .
Stalin said at Yalta that he would join the war against Japan if he could conserve what he wanted to occupy :Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands .
Stalin said not that the US should conquer Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands and that they should give it to the USSR after the war .
Spain said that Germany should conquer Morocco and Oran (what Germany could do only after the war ) and give it after the war to Spain that would remain neutral til it would get Morocco/Oran after the war .
These demands were impossible for Germany to accept and to fulfill. Germany could have Morocco/Oran only years after the war ..And Spain knew it but still asked them
That's no evidence of anything. It's simply your opinion on the matter. And your opinion, by the way, seems to be that Spain knew its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany because... Spain knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany! :lol:
The forum rules (app.php/rules) are clear about this:
5. Back up your claims
[...]
If another member challenge one of your claims, you must cite a source for your claim.
If you make a claim that is obviously controversial, you should cite a source immediately
I have challenged your claim, which is obviously controversial as many posters in this forum and many sources in the literature disagree with you. So you must cite a source for your claim. And no, your groundless opinion is not a source.
So again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.
The fact is that the Germans could not fulfill the Spanish demands and that if they could fulfill them,they would not benefit Spain : even if the Germans could transport 1 million tons of grains to the Spanish border, this would not benefit Spain ,because of the situation of the Spanish railways .
The same for Morocco (another Spanish demand ) :Germany could not conquer it and Spain could not conquer it and even if Germany conquered it , Spain could not occupy it .And Spain knew this .There were no Spanish plans for the occupation of Morocco ,because Spain knew that it could not do this .But still it demanded something that was impossible .
No plans = no intention .
If Spain did not want to occupy Morocco,why did it demand that Germany would conquer Morocco and give it to Spain ?
The Germans knew very well that the Spanish demands were only a feint ,but their promises were also a feint :if Spain had asked things that were not impossible, Germany would have invented an excuse to not fulfill them .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 17 Oct 2022 08:05

A ( written ) evidence is not needed , logic is also an evidence .
All historians accept that Hitler gave the order to the Einsatzgruppen to exterminate the Jews in the Soviet Union,although there is no written evidence .The only explanation why they did it is the order of Hitler .
We have the written orders from the Politbureau for the Katyn killings, but these orders are not needed as a proof as it is inconceivable that a local commander would have ordered the killings without the order from the Kremlin .
It is the same for the Spanish demands .The only explanation why Spain demanded things that were impossible and that could not benefit them,as a condition to join the war ,is that Spain had no intention to join the war because joining the war would not benefit but hurt Spain .
And the fact that Spain did not join the war is an other proof that it had not the intention to join the war .
If Spain had the intention to join the war,it would have done it and it would not have asked things that were impossible and that could not benefit her .
Spain did the same as Italy a year before :Italy also did not want to join the war and to conceal this,it also asked things that were impossible .

QED.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5803
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Oct 2022 16:07

ljadw wrote:The fact is that the Germans could not fulfill the Spanish demands and that if they could fulfill them,they would not benefit Spain : even if the Germans could transport 1 million tons of grains to the Spanish border, this would not benefit Spain ,because of the situation of the Spanish railways .
That has nothing to do with whether Spain knew or not that its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany.
ljadw wrote:The same for Morocco (another Spanish demand ) :Germany could not conquer it and Spain could not conquer it and even if Germany conquered it , Spain could not occupy it .And Spain knew this.
Takao has already told you that Germany, and much less so Spain, has no need to conquer Morocco. They just need to ask for Morocco as part of France's surrender agreement. And that Spain knew.
ljadw wrote:There were no Spanish plans for the occupation of Morocco ,because Spain knew that it could not do this .But still it demanded something that was impossible .No plans = no intention .
Spain could very easily occupy Morocco, as long as this occupation was peaceful. And that's what Spain wanted, and that's the reason they asked Germany for Morocco. That you can't understand this in not evidence that it was impossible.
ljadw wrote:If Spain did not want to occupy Morocco,why did it demand that Germany would conquer Morocco and give it to Spain ?
Show us the evidence that Spain demanded Germany to conquer Morocco. Spain didn't asked for that, you are inventing "facts" as you go.
ljadw wrote:The Germans knew very well that the Spanish demands were only a feint ,but their promises were also a feint :if Spain had asked things that were not impossible, Germany would have invented an excuse to not fulfill them .
Still moving the goalpoasts? The Germans suspected that the Spanish demands were a feint, but they couldn't know it for sure. Anyway, what the Germans knew or didn't knew and what they suspected or didn't suspect has nothing to do with what the Spaniards knew or didn't knew.

Again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5803
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Oct 2022 16:26

ljadw wrote:A ( written ) evidence is not needed , logic is also an evidence .
The forum rules are cristal clear:
5. Back up your claims
[...]
If another member challenge one of your claims, you must cite a source for your claim.
If you make a claim that is obviously controversial, you should cite a source immediately
You are required to provide a source for your claim, logic is not going to do it.
Anyway, faulty logic is not an evidence, and your logic is so full of faults that calling it logic is an insult to true, reasonable logic.
ljadw wrote:It is the same for the Spanish demands .The only explanation why Spain demanded things that were impossible and that could not benefit them,as a condition to join the war ,is that Spain had no intention to join the war because joining the war would not benefit but hurt Spain .
1) That you can't think of another reason for the Spanish demands does not mean that there were no other possible reasons..
2) You claim that, if fulfilled, Spanish demands would have not benefitted Spain is simply preposterous.
ljadw wrote:And the fact that Spain did not join the war is an other proof that it had not the intention to join the war .
And that's the most powerful demonstration that your "logic" is fully devoid of reasoning.
ljadw wrote:If Spain had the intention to join the war,it would have done it and it would not have asked things that were impossible and that could not benefit her .
If Spain had not the intention to join the war, it would not have offered to join the war if certain conditions were fulfilled.
If Spain had the intention to join the war if its demands were fulfilled, it would have done it after their demands would have been fulfilled. Its demands were not fulfilled, and Spain did not enter the war. That what's happened in OTL. Any other statement that you want to make would need evidence to back it up. And no, your "logic" is not evidence of anything.
ljadw wrote:QED.
:lol:
In your dreams.

Again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 17 Oct 2022 19:45

As there is no written order from Hitler to exterminate the Soviet Jews, your conclusion is that Hitler was innocent in this mass murder ?
We don't need written orders or notes to prove things .

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 17 Oct 2022 20:01

ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 19:45
As there is no written order from Hitler to exterminate the Soviet Jews, your conclusion is that Hitler was innocent in this mass murder ?
We don't need written orders or notes to prove things .
Actually, yes proof is needed.

You believe that Hitler issued the order. However, you cannot prove it.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13608
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 17 Oct 2022 20:09

Ironmachine wrote:
17 Oct 2022 16:07
ljadw wrote:The fact is that the Germans could not fulfill the Spanish demands and that if they could fulfill them,they would not benefit Spain : even if the Germans could transport 1 million tons of grains to the Spanish border, this would not benefit Spain ,because of the situation of the Spanish railways .
That has nothing to do with whether Spain knew or not that its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany.
ljadw wrote:The same for Morocco (another Spanish demand ) :Germany could not conquer it and Spain could not conquer it and even if Germany conquered it , Spain could not occupy it .And Spain knew this.
Takao has already told you that Germany, and much less so Spain, has no need to conquer Morocco. They just need to ask for Morocco as part of France's surrender agreement. And that Spain knew.
ljadw wrote:There were no Spanish plans for the occupation of Morocco ,because Spain knew that it could not do this .But still it demanded something that was impossible .No plans = no intention .
Spain could very easily occupy Morocco, as long as this occupation was peaceful. And that's what Spain wanted, and that's the reason they asked Germany for Morocco. That you can't understand this in not evidence that it was impossible.
ljadw wrote:If Spain did not want to occupy Morocco,why did it demand that Germany would conquer Morocco and give it to Spain ?
Show us the evidence that Spain demanded Germany to conquer Morocco. Spain didn't asked for that, you are inventing "facts" as you go.
ljadw wrote:The Germans knew very well that the Spanish demands were only a feint ,but their promises were also a feint :if Spain had asked things that were not impossible, Germany would have invented an excuse to not fulfill them .
Still moving the goalpoasts? The Germans suspected that the Spanish demands were a feint, but they couldn't know it for sure. Anyway, what the Germans knew or didn't knew and what they suspected or didn't suspect has nothing to do with what the Spaniards knew or didn't knew.

Again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.
What is your proof that Spain could very easily occupy Morocco ?
Spain demanded Morocco, this was impossible and as long as they did not get Morocco,they would not enter the war ,
Source has been given : The Avalon Project :Hitler's comments to Ciano on 28 September 1940 .
Point 5 :Germany is to give Spain Morocco and Oran .
If Spain could very easily occupy Morocco, it would not ask Germany to restart the war with France and to conquer Morocco.
Point 6 : Spain is to propose to Germany ,in return, her friendship . In return of what ? In return of Morocco,Oran and the other 4 points ,which were : grain, fuel, equipment for the army (and Spain would always ask for more equipment ) and special weapons and troops to conquer Gibraltar .
AFTER ALL these points were fulfilled, Spain would propose Germany her friendship .
And, what the Germans knew or didn't knew has everything to do with what the Spaniards knew or didn't knew .
The only way for Germany to give Morocco to Spain (which it would not do ) was to invade, conquer ,occupy and pacify Morocco, and this ,if it was possible, which it didn't , would demand several decades .France would never give up Morocco peacefully :it did not give Tunisia to Italy,why should it give Morocco to Germany ?
And,as long as point 5 (and all the others ) were not fulfilled, Spain would not propose to Germany her friendship .

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”