Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

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ljadw
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 17 Oct 2022 20:11

Takao wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:01
ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 19:45
As there is no written order from Hitler to exterminate the Soviet Jews, your conclusion is that Hitler was innocent in this mass murder ?
We don't need written orders or notes to prove things .
Actually, yes proof is needed.

You believe that Hitler issued the order. However, you cannot prove it.
All historians ,except the negationists, admit that Hitler gave the order to the Einsatzgruppen to liquidate the Soviet Jews .

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 17 Oct 2022 21:47

ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:11
Takao wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:01
ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 19:45
As there is no written order from Hitler to exterminate the Soviet Jews, your conclusion is that Hitler was innocent in this mass murder ?
We don't need written orders or notes to prove things .
Actually, yes proof is needed.

You believe that Hitler issued the order. However, you cannot prove it.
All historians ,except the negationists, admit that Hitler gave the order to the Einsatzgruppen to liquidate the Soviet Jews .
And there are people that believe there was no moon landing.
And there are people that believe in God's.
And there are people that believe in unicorns.
People believe in a lot of things for which they have no proof.

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 17 Oct 2022 22:52

ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:11
All historians ,except the negationists, admit that Hitler gave the order to the Einsatzgruppen to liquidate the Soviet Jews .
Correction...You completely forgot
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functio ... ism_debate
It appears that several historians do not believe that Hitler ordered the Holocaust, although they do believe he is primarily responsible through his ant-semitic policies.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 18 Oct 2022 06:40

ljadw wrote:As there is no written order from Hitler to exterminate the Soviet Jews, your conclusion is that Hitler was innocent in this mass murder ?
We don't need written orders or notes to prove things .
Probably that is the root of the problem with you: you don't know the difference between a proven fact and a belief. You can believe what you want, but you need proof to prove anything.
At most, what you have shown here is circumstantial evidence (and even that is arguable) that Spain may have not really wanted to enter the war, and some baseless claims that Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and thus those demands were really an excuse used by Spain to not enter the war.
Nothing of all that amounts to evidence. You have provided no proof. You may believe what you want, but your can't present your opinion as fact, which is what you did. You have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence to back up your claim, and repeatedly you have failed to do that. I am very interested in seeing that evidence, becuase it would be a revolutionary advance in the historiography of Spain in WWII, but it's already pretty evident that you don't have such proof.
Still, let's try again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 18 Oct 2022 07:14

ljadw wrote:What is your proof that Spain could very easily occupy Morocco ?
I did not say that Spain could very easily occupy Morocco, I said that Spain could very easily occupy Morocco, as long as this occupation was peaceful.
ljadw wrote:Spain demanded Morocco, this was impossible
Spain demanded Morocco, but I never seen any proof that Spain would not be satisfied with a treaty signed by Germany and Italy that would grant Morocco to Spain after the war ended as part of the war reparations, for example.
ljadw wrote:and as long as they did not get Morocco,they would not enter the war ,
That's true, depending of what you mean by not getting Morocco.

ljadw wrote:Source has been given : The Avalon Project :Hitler's comments to Ciano on 28 September 1940 .
Hitler's comments are not and can not be a proof of Spain's intentions.
ljadw wrote:Point 5 :Germany is to give Spain Morocco and Oran .
If Spain could very easily occupy Morocco, it would not ask Germany to restart the war with France and to conquer Morocco.
I have already explained that I didn't say that. Anyway, regardless of how easy is to do something, many times it can be far more convenient to have someone to do it for you. If anything, this "proves" that Spanish politicians of the time were quite smart, not that Spain could not do it.
ljadw wrote:Point 6 : Spain is to propose to Germany ,in return, her friendship . In return of what ? In return of Morocco,Oran and the other 4 points ,which were : grain, fuel, equipment for the army (and Spain would always ask for more equipment ) and special weapons and troops to conquer Gibraltar .
AFTER ALL these points were fulfilled, Spain would propose Germany her friendship .
No. After all these points were fulfilled, Spain would enter the war at a time of its choosing.
ljadw wrote:And, what the Germans knew or didn't knew has everything to do with what the Spaniards knew or didn't knew .
No, it hasn't. However, given how faulty your reasoning is, I can understand why you can't understand something so simple.
ljadw wrote:The only way for Germany to give Morocco to Spain (which it would not do ) was to invade, conquer ,occupy and pacify Morocco,
No, it was not the only way. Takao has already explained to you another possibility.
ljadw wrote:and this ,if it was possible, which it didn't , would demand several decades .France would never give up Morocco peacefully :it did not give Tunisia to Italy,why should it give Morocco to Germany ?
:lol:
ljadw wrote:And,as long as point 5 (and all the others ) were not fulfilled, Spain would not propose to Germany her friendship .
Which does not imply in any way that Spain made the demands of point 5 and all the other because it did not want to enter the war.

Again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 18 Oct 2022 11:31

If Spain wanted to remain neutral , why did it demand that Germany would give her a territory that Germany did not possess ?
Neutral countries do not get rewards in wartime or after a war .
If Spain wanted to remain neutral, why asked it from Germany 700000 tons of grain, all the fuel,the lacking equipment for its army ,artillery, aircraft and special weapons and troops for the conquest of Gibraltar (Felix meant war with Britain ) ?Points 1,2,3,4 of the Avalon Project ?
The answer is obvious : the only way for Spain to remain neutral was to demand as condition for her entry in the war,things that Germany could not deliver .
Point 6 could only become a fact if and after points 1,2,3,4,5 became a fact .As these points could not be fulfilled ( point 4, which was only a pinprick for Britain , meant the cancellation of Barbarossa , the same for point 5 ),it is obvious that Spain had not the intention to join a war against France and Britain, or a war against Britain,and that it wanted to conceal this by asking impossible demands .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 18 Oct 2022 11:41

Takao wrote:
17 Oct 2022 22:52
ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:11
All historians ,except the negationists, admit that Hitler gave the order to the Einsatzgruppen to liquidate the Soviet Jews .
Correction...You completely forgot
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functio ... ism_debate
It appears that several historians do not believe that Hitler ordered the Holocaust, although they do believe he is primarily responsible through his ant-semitic policies.
Your interpretation of intentionalists and functionalists is totally wrong .
The intentionalists said that Hitler always had the intention to exterminate the Jews, the functionalists do NOT dispute that Hitler gave in 1941 the order to exterminate the`Soviet Jews, but that he did not have before the war the intention to exterminate the Soviet Jews .And the functionalists are right . Before the war (January 1939 ?) Hitler said that a new European war would result in the end of the Jews in Europe ,but that did not mean that he had at that day the intention to kill all the Jews in Europe .
But BOTH accept that Hitler give before Barbarossa the order to exterminate the Jews in the USSR ,although there are NO written orders from Hitler to do this .
Negationists ( Irving ) do say that because there is no written order from Hitler, Hitler had nothing to do with what happened,and that it was all the fault of Himmler .
Besides : there is a difference between the Holocaust and the extermination of the Jews in occupied USSR .

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 18 Oct 2022 16:49

ljadw wrote:If Spain wanted to remain neutral , why did it demand that Germany would give her a territory that Germany did not possess ?
Neutral countries do not get rewards in wartime or after a war .
If Spain wanted to remain neutral, why asked it from Germany 700000 tons of grain, all the fuel,the lacking equipment for its army ,artillery, aircraft and special weapons and troops for the conquest of Gibraltar (Felix meant war with Britain ) ?Points 1,2,3,4 of the Avalon Project ?
If Spain wanted to remain neutral, why did it offered Germany to join the war before anyone in Germany has asked Spain for its belligerance?
If Spain wanted to remain neutral, why did Spain actually renounced its neutrality and oficially adopted a posture of non-belligerence on 12 June 1940?
ljadw wrote:The answer is obvious : the only way for Spain to remain neutral was to demand as condition for her entry in the war,things that Germany could not deliver .
Obvious is your word for "nobody but ljadw can believe such a stupid nonsense and defend it with such inane arguments"? :D
The only way for Spain to remain neutral was to remain neutral, and that Spain didn't, as the country declared its non-belligerence on 12 June 1940.
So in the second half of 1940 and in 1941 Spain was actually not neutral. Didn't you know this, or had you forgotten it (again)? Or perhaps you just omitted the fact because it does not fit well with your argument? :roll:
And even if Spain had remained oficially neutral, it could have remained by the simple method of refusing to enter the war. Franco could always say no regardless of the German opinions. If Germany was determined to force Spain into the war and was ready to threaten with an invasion if Spain did not comply, no amount of excuses would have been enough to save Franco. So if the Germans were not ready to force Spain to take a decision, there was no need for Spanish excuses; if the Germans were ready to force Spain, excuses would have had no value. That would have been obvious (in its real sense, not in the one you give to that word) to the Spanish authorities of the time.
ljadw wrote:Point 6 could only become a fact if and after points 1,2,3,4,5 became a fact .As these points could not be fulfilled ( point 4, which was only a pinprick for Britain , meant the cancellation of Barbarossa , the same for point 5 ),it is obvious that Spain had not the intention to join a war against France and Britain, or a war against Britain,and that it wanted to conceal this by asking impossible demands .
The only point that it's a fact is that you have no evidence or source to back up your claim that Spain made on purpose demands that she knew Germany could not fulfill as an excuse to avoid joining the war.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Georg_S » 18 Oct 2022 19:17

ljadw wrote:
18 Oct 2022 11:41
Takao wrote:
17 Oct 2022 22:52
ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:11
All historians ,except the negationists, admit that Hitler gave the order to the Einsatzgruppen to liquidate the Soviet Jews .
Correction...You completely forgot
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functio ... ism_debate
It appears that several historians do not believe that Hitler ordered the Holocaust, although they do believe he is primarily responsible through his ant-semitic policies.
Your interpretation of intentionalists and functionalists is totally wrong .
The intentionalists said that Hitler always had the intention to exterminate the Jews, the functionalists do NOT dispute that Hitler gave in 1941 the order to exterminate the`Soviet Jews, but that he did not have before the war the intention to exterminate the Soviet Jews .And the functionalists are right . Before the war (January 1939 ?) Hitler said that a new European war would result in the end of the Jews in Europe ,but that did not mean that he had at that day the intention to kill all the Jews in Europe .
But BOTH accept that Hitler give before Barbarossa the order to exterminate the Jews in the USSR ,although there are NO written orders from Hitler to do this .
Negationists ( Irving ) do say that because there is no written order from Hitler, Hitler had nothing to do with what happened,and that it was all the fault of Himmler .
Besides : there is a difference between the Holocaust and the extermination of the Jews in occupied USSR .
Hello
As your claims have been challenged, the rules of the forum says that you must provide sources that proves your claim.

So I advice you to give sources to your claim.

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Georg
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 18 Oct 2022 20:56

Source :grey dynamics :Operation Felix:the planned Nazi Invasion of Gibraltar
The Hendaye Meeting and further negotiations
''Franco wanted too much and Hitler had little to offer
Secret protocol : Franco vowed to enter the war at his own convenience .''
Why did Franco want too much ,knowing that Hitler had little to offer ?
If someone is saying that he will enter the war at his own convenience,this means that he will never enter the war .
What the author wrote last year in grey dynamics is a proof
1 that Franco had no intention to enter the war
2 that to conceal this he demanded things of which he knew were impossible to fulfill .
3 Hitler said also that he could fulfill Franco's demands at the expense of France for joining the war only if France could recuperate these losses at the expense of Britain . Thus after the war .
Franco wanted cash on the barrel and than later he would maybe enter the war .Hitler wanted first Spanish entry in the war and than if Germany won,maybe, if following Hitler it was possible, he would fulfill the demands of Spain .

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 19 Oct 2022 00:59

ljadw wrote:
18 Oct 2022 20:56
Source :grey dynamics :Operation Felix:the planned Nazi Invasion of Gibraltar
That is not your source...Are you familiar with the term "plagiarism"?

The underworked overpaid hack employed by Grey Dynamics barely disguises the passages she lifted from an article written in 2011.

Underworked overpaid hack
With Franco wanting too much and Hitler having little to offer, and after hours of heated negotiations,...
Original author
With Franco wanting much and Hitler having little to offer, there was much quibbling.
Forgive me, but I feel that your plagiarizing author lacks credibility.

Now, on to more intellectually stimulating pursuits...HERO WARS!

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 19 Oct 2022 06:16

Takao wrote:
19 Oct 2022 00:59
ljadw wrote:
18 Oct 2022 20:56
Source :grey dynamics :Operation Felix:the planned Nazi Invasion of Gibraltar
That is not your source...Are you familiar with the term "plagiarism"?

The underworked overpaid hack employed by Grey Dynamics barely disguises the passages she lifted from an article written in 2011.

Underworked overpaid hack
With Franco wanting too much and Hitler having little to offer, and after hours of heated negotiations,...
Original author
With Franco wanting much and Hitler having little to offer, there was much quibbling.
Forgive me, but I feel that your plagiarizing author lacks credibility.

Now, on to more intellectually stimulating pursuits...HERO WARS!
I don't see that both quotes contradict each other .
Much, too much : that's only semantics .
Both quotes say that Hitler had little to offer .

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 19 Oct 2022 06:46

Source :grey dynamics :Operation Felix:the planned Nazi Invasion of Gibraltar
The Hendaye Meeting and further negotiations
''Franco wanted too much and Hitler had little to offer
Secret protocol : Franco vowed to enter the war at his own convenience .''
Why did Franco want too much ,knowing that Hitler had little to offer ?
Show your evidence that Franco knew that Hitler had little to offerr (which, by the way, is quite different to "Hitler wanted to offer little").
ljadw wrote:If someone is saying that he will enter the war at his own convenience,this means that he will never enter the war .
That's another example of your "logic"? With statements like that, you are making a fool of yourself, but I doubt this will come as a surprise to anyone in this forum.
ljadw wrote:What the author wrote last year in grey dynamics is a proof
1 that Franco had no intention to enter the war
2 that to conceal this he demanded things of which he knew were impossible to fulfill .
What the author wrote anytime anywhere is proof of nothing. Only his evidence is proof of anything. He doesn't have any proof that Franco made his demands knowing that Germany could not fulfill them, and neither do you.
ljadw wrote:3 Hitler said also that he could fulfill Franco's demands at the expense of France for joining the war only if France could recuperate these losses at the expense of Britain . Thus after the war .
So then Franco's demands were not impossible to fulfill, contrary to what you claimed in the previous sentence.
Are you not even trying to maintain some level of coherence through your baseless claims?
ljadw wrote:Franco wanted cash on the barrel and than later he would maybe enter the war .
Later he would maybe enter the war? Previously you have claimed that "Franco had no intention to enter the war". So what is the "correct" statement: Franco had no intention to enter the war or Franco maybe could have entered the war? Some coherence, please. Or are you not even sure anymore of what your position in this matter is?
Hitler wanted first Spanish entry in the war and than if Germany won,maybe, if following Hitler it was possible, he would fulfill the demands of Spain .
Yep, we all know that Franco and Hitler had very different goals, and that's why no agreement was reached. Of course, this means nothing with regards to your claim that Spain knew its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still those demands were made on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war. I'm still waiting for your evidence to back up that.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 19 Oct 2022 07:06

ljadw wrote:I don't see that both quotes contradict each other .
Much, too much : that's only semantics .
Both quotes say that Hitler had little to offer .
And neither quote says that Franco knew that Hitler could not fulfill his demands, demands which were made because, being unfulfillable, offered a cheap excuse for not entering the war. That's your argument that I have repeatedly challenged and that you have constantly failed to back up with evidence.
So again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war. Or, failing that, conceded that you have no evidence to back up your claim.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 19 Oct 2022 07:09

ljadw wrote: [...]
Georg_S wrote:Hello
As your claims have been challenged, the rules of the forum says that you must provide sources that proves your claim.

So I advice you to give sources to your claim.

Best regards
Georg
Now it is the forum staff who is asking you to give sources to back up your claims. I have zero hope that you will comply with the forum's rules and provide the sources required or withdraw your claim, but let's try again: Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and still they made those demands on purpose so to have an excuse for not entering the war. Or, failing that, conceded that you have no evidence to back up your claim.

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