Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

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ljadw
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 19 Oct 2022 08:21

two more sources
1 Warfare History : Operation Felix :Franco and Hitler play cat and mouse

2 Hitler and Franco : a meeting and its consequences .
The author writes the following : ''Franco laid down a price to bring Spain in to the war,that he knew could not be met .''

ljadw
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 19 Oct 2022 09:03

And more sources
Deutschlandfunk : Treffen der Diktatoren
Franco ging in der Tat in dieses Treffen hinein ,in der Erwartung,Argumente vorbringen zu können,die darauf hinauskaufen dass Spanien nicht mehr in den Weltkrieg eintreten muss .
Translation :'' Franco went to the meeting ( of Hendaye ) with the expectation that he could present arguments which would have as result that Spain would not be obliged to enter the war .''
This means that Franco went to Hendaye with the intention to keep Spain out of the war .
Another source :Der Hintergrund Franco-Spanien und Nazi-Deutschland
'' Deutschland war aber weder bereit ,noch in der Lage,die Spanischen Vorbedingungen zu erfüllen ''.
Translation : But Germany was unwilling and not in the situation to fulfill Spain's demands .''
And, from the same source : On 7 December,Franco told the Germans, after a visit from Canaris , that for the moment, Spain was no longer willing to enter the war,and this under all circumstances ( the text mentions : Jedenfalls )

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 19 Oct 2022 09:16

ljadw wrote:
19 Oct 2022 06:16
I don't see that both quotes contradict each other .
Much, too much : that's only semantics .
Both quotes say that Hitler had little to offer .
You don't know what plagiarism is do you?

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 19 Oct 2022 09:58

ljadw wrote:
19 Oct 2022 08:21
two more sources
1 Warfare History : Operation Felix :Franco and Hitler play cat and mouse
Regretfully, this is not another source.

This is the source that the Grey Dynamics author copied, practically word for word, from.

See my post#221.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 19 Oct 2022 11:31

And an other source :
The European Neutrals in WW2
P 27
''In June 1940,Franco set an unacceptable list of demands he knew couldn't be met .'''
" At Hendaye, Hitler's strategy for Spain was checkmated by Franco .''
'' A German diplomatic memorandum ( note 13 ) stated that ''there was the danger that, if the French were explicitly told they would have to get out of certain African areas,the African possessions would perhaps desert even with the concurrence of the government of Vichy .'' ''
And ''perhaps '' is a very big euphemism: what we know of Nogues and Weygand, is enough to know that they never would give up Morocco and Oran to a country that had not fought in the war .
And, Franco asked even more : he wanted also French Catalonia,and it was out of the question that France would accept this .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 19 Oct 2022 11:36

Takao wrote:
19 Oct 2022 09:58
ljadw wrote:
19 Oct 2022 08:21
two more sources
1 Warfare History : Operation Felix :Franco and Hitler play cat and mouse
Regretfully, this is not another source.

This is the source that the Grey Dynamics author copied, practically word for word, from.

See my post#221.
There is no proof for plagiarism : If A writes the same as B ,is not a proof for plagiarism . One must also prove that A read what B had written and than intentionally copied B . And this is almost impossible to prove .

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 19 Oct 2022 12:23

ljadw wrote:
19 Oct 2022 11:36
Takao wrote:
19 Oct 2022 09:58
ljadw wrote:
19 Oct 2022 08:21
two more sources
1 Warfare History : Operation Felix :Franco and Hitler play cat and mouse
Regretfully, this is not another source.

This is the source that the Grey Dynamics author copied, practically word for word, from.

See my post#221.
There is no proof for plagiarism : If A writes the same as B ,is not a proof for plagiarism . One must also prove that A read what B had written and than intentionally copied B . And this is almost impossible to prove .
Wrong.

That explanation does not work even for college students.
Accidental Plagiarism

Accidental plagiarism occurs when a person neglects to cite their sources, or misquotes their sources, or unintentionally paraphrases a source by using similar words, groups of words, and/or sentence structure without attribution. (See example for mosaic plagiarism.) Students must learn how to cite their sources and to take careful and accurate notes when doing research. (See the Note-Taking section on the Avoiding Plagiarism page.) Lack of intent does not absolve the student of responsibility for plagiarism. Cases of accidental plagiarism are taken as seriously as any other plagiarism and are subject to the same range of consequences as other types of plagiarism.
https://www.bowdoin.edu/dean-of-student ... arism.html

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 20 Oct 2022 07:01

ljadw wrote:two more sources
Let's take a look at those two more "sources":
ljadw wrote:1 Warfare History : Operation Felix :Franco and Hitler play cat and mouse
You mean this blog?:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/artic ... nd-mouse/
Top academic quality indeed! No references, no sources cited. Just the writers's opinion. :lol:
But anyway, where in that webpage does it says that Franco knew that his demands could not be fulfilled by Germany and that's was the reason he made such demands? I can't find such statement there.
ljadw wrote:2 Hitler and Franco : a meeting and its consequences .
The author writes the following : ''Franco laid down a price to bring Spain in to the war,that he knew could not be met .''
That's one is even better. Do you mean this blog?:
https://kyleorton.co.uk/2021/06/17/fran ... g-hendaye/
Again no references, no sources, just the writer's opinion.
If that's the best you can show, it only proves that you are not the only one so stupid to take his own opinions as facts.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 20 Oct 2022 07:10

ljadw wrote:And more sources
Deutschlandfunk : Treffen der Diktatoren
Franco ging in der Tat in dieses Treffen hinein ,in der Erwartung,Argumente vorbringen zu können,die darauf hinauskaufen dass Spanien nicht mehr in den Weltkrieg eintreten muss .
Translation :'' Franco went to the meeting ( of Hendaye ) with the expectation that he could present arguments which would have as result that Spain would not be obliged to enter the war .''
This means that Franco went to Hendaye with the intention to keep Spain out of the war .
And again, where is the evidence? That's only the author's opinion, with no evidence to support it.
And anyway, that does not means that Franco knew that the Germans could not fulfill his demands and that was the reason he made them. It could well mean that Franco would not enter the war until his demands were fulfilled.
ljadw wrote:Another source :Der Hintergrund Franco-Spanien und Nazi-Deutschland
'' Deutschland war aber weder bereit ,noch in der Lage,die Spanischen Vorbedingungen zu erfüllen ''.
Translation : But Germany was unwilling and not in the situation to fulfill Spain's demands .''
Which has nothing to do with whether Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfilled or not.
ljadw wrote:And, from the same source : On 7 December,Franco told the Germans, after a visit from Canaris , that for the moment, Spain was no longer willing to enter the war,and this under all circumstances ( the text mentions : Jedenfalls )
That remark, if it's really meant what you think it means, was made on December. If in December Spain was "no longer" willing to enter the war, it clearly means that before December Spain was willing to enter the war, which means that your whole argument (that Spain never wanted to enter the war and that the demands made long before December were excuses) completely faulty.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 20 Oct 2022 07:20

ljadw wrote:And an other source :
The European Neutrals in WW2
P 27
''In June 1940,Franco set an unacceptable list of demands he knew couldn't be met .
'''
Unacceptable is not the same as impossible to fulfill.
Anyway, who found the list unacceptable? Germany? That's was not Spain's problem, and in no way means that Spain knew that the list could not be accepted, and much less fulfilled, by Germany, which was your argument.
ljadw wrote:" At Hendaye, Hitler's strategy for Spain was checkmated by Franco .''
As Hitler's strategy for Spain was to force Spain to enter the war without giving Spain what Spain asked for, then yes, Franco checkmated this strategy. But Franco checkmated this strategy simply by saying that first he wanted his demands fulfilled and then he would enter the war. Evidently, that's not a proof that he knew his demands could not be fulfilled by Germany.
ljadw wrote:' A German diplomatic memorandum ( note 13 ) stated that ''there was the danger that, if the French were explicitly told they would have to get out of certain African areas,the African possessions would perhaps desert even with the concurrence of the government of Vichy .''
And ''perhaps '' is a very big euphemism: what we know of Nogues and Weygand, is enough to know that they never would give up Morocco and Oran to a country that had not fought in the war .''
That was a German opinion. It does not mean that the Spaniards had the same opinion.
ljadw wrote:And, Franco asked even more : he wanted also French Catalonia,and it was out of the question that France would accept this .
Well, that's something new that I have seen never before. Care to show a source for that? And, please, show a source of some relevance, not just another baseless opinion.
By the way, France would accept what it would be forced to accept.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 20 Oct 2022 07:44

ljadw, it seems to me that you are under the impression that all you have to do is to prove that the Germans could not fulfill the Spanish demands, and that would automatically show that Spain knew those demands could not be fulfilled and consequently the demands were made as an excuse for not entering the war.
If that's the case, then you are plainly wrong.
I also think that the Spanish demands could not be fulfilled by Germany in any reasonable scenario (however, it has been shown there are other posters that disagree on this point). However, even if you can prove that Germany could not fulfill the Spanish demands, that doesn't in any way imply that Spain knew that, and much less that the demands were made with the goal of providing an excuse for not entering the war.
Even if you can prove that Spain did not want to enter the war in any circunstance, and that's something extremely difficult to prove and no one had managed to do, the second part of your argument (that the demands were made with the goal of providing an excuse for not entering the war) would still need further evidence.

As for you so-called "sources", consider this:
Member wm, in post 37 of this thread, quoted what follows from Franco and Hitler: the myths of Hendaye 1940 by Paul Preston:
Nevertheless, had Hitler been sufficiently determined to secure Spanish belligerence, he might well have pulled Franco into the war on his side.

 It would have required massive deliveries of food and military equipment and extravagant promises of imperial spoils at the expense of France.
We can conclude two things from this quote:
1) Preston believes that Germany could have fulfilled the Spanish demands.
2) He believes that if those demands were fulfilled, Spain would have entered the war.
2) This is just his opinion, with no evidence to support it.
I'm sure you are not going to accept his opinion as evidence that Germany could fulfill the Spanish demands and that Spain would have entered the war when they were fulfilled. And that's all right, because Preston's opinion on this matter, by itself, is worth nothing.
The problem, however, is that you are acting as Preston. You are stating your opinion as fact, with no evidence to back it up. The "sources" you cite are also acting as Preston, offering their authors' opinions without any evidence to support them
I would wish that you could see the fault in your sources as well as, I'm sure, you can see the fault in Preston's work. Unfortunately, from my previous experience with you in this and other threads, I dout that you can see the plank in your own reasoning as well as you see the speck of sawdust in the opinions of others.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Loïc » 20 Oct 2022 09:19

ljadw wrote:
19 Oct 2022 11:31
And, Franco asked even more : he wanted also French Catalonia,and it was out of the question that France would accept this .
well the source doesn't seem really serious about such point

the only reference to Roussillon in a pair of book and several articles about French-Spanish relations by Catala Séguéla etc I found came from...Germans rather than Spaniards ...and at the great exasperation of these last ones

e.g. with Ribbentrop
showing a map of Europe to Serrano Suñer, Hitler "offers" them Portugal and put the finger on the "French Catalonia"
«look this absurdity! Roussillon and Cerdagne are Spanish!»
Is he kidding? Taken aback, Suñer prefers to answer than an absurdity that lasts 6 centuries is no longer one
Apart from Andorra, Franco's Spain had in fact never demanded border rectifications in the Pyrénées and the Führer's cynicism hardly met the expectations of the Spanish government.


it was no question to cease anything to Spaniards for the French even with german threat, nor Oranais nor Morocco that would provoke dissidence with Noguès and French military personnel and North Africa joining Free France, not even the undesirable Spanish Republicans leaders claiming by Franco in southern free zone, so concerning Roussillon...Germans wished bâtir des châteaux en Espagne

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Oct 2022 07:17

Loïc wrote:
ljadw wrote:And, Franco asked even more : he wanted also French Catalonia,and it was out of the question that France would accept this .
well the source doesn't seem really serious about such point

the only reference to Roussillon in a pair of book and several articles about French-Spanish relations by Catala Séguéla etc I found came from...Germans rather than Spaniards ...and at the great exasperation of these last ones
Yes, that's seem to be the case. I have never seen any reference to any Spanish interest in any part of continental France; even the invasion plans of 1942 were not intended to acquire territory in that country.
But who knows, maybe ljadw has found the philosopher's stone... again? :roll:

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by George L Gregory » 03 Nov 2022 00:40

Takao wrote:
17 Oct 2022 20:01
ljadw wrote:
17 Oct 2022 19:45
As there is no written order from Hitler to exterminate the Soviet Jews, your conclusion is that Hitler was innocent in this mass murder ?
We don't need written orders or notes to prove things .
Actually, yes proof is needed.

You believe that Hitler issued the order. However, you cannot prove it.
The fact that there is no written evidence that Hitler ordered the extermination of the Jews is not proof that there is no evidence Hitler ordered the extermination of the Jews. There are different types of evidence, especially when it comes to history. There's overwhelming evidence that Hitler ordered the extermination of the Jews. In fact, Hitler himself never even kept it a secret what the Nazis would and were doing to the Jews. The way Hitler and the Nazi regime worked was not exactly what one would call beauratic so it's no wonder that many of Hitler's instructions and orders were given orally. All of the main decisions came from Hitler - the Führer.
I want to be a prophet again today: if international finance Jewry in Europe and beyond should succeed once more in plunging the peoples into a world war, then the result will be not the Bolshevization of the earth and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!
Hitler in January 1939
And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.
Hitler in January 1942

Also, it doesn't take a genius to work out that if a document order had existed, it would have been one of the first things destroyed when the Nazis were trying to hide the evidence for their crimes.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by George L Gregory » 03 Nov 2022 00:59

Takao wrote:
17 Oct 2022 21:47
And there are people that believe there was no moon landing.
Conspiracy theorists.
And there are people that believe in God's.
Religious people.
And there are people that believe in unicorns.
Morons.
People believe in a lot of things for which they have no proof.
None of those examples have anything to do with someone pointing out that the lack of a written order is not proof that there is no evidence that Hitler ordered the extermination of Jews. Evidence comes in different types.

It's quite simple actually:
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
- Christopher Hitchens

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