German Atomic Weapons Program

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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williamjpellas
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 21 Aug 2023 17:56

Ed West, do you have a publication date for your book or an estimated time to completion?

You are 100% correct about the massive numbers of slave laborers employed by the SS in most of their large construction projects, including the German nuclear weapons effort. They also had, in today's terms, billions of dollars in stolen and liquidated war booty. As you know, the SS was a state within a state with its own economy and administrative apparatus, and it was the SS, together with the German military, that funded the nuclear program, not Speer and his Reich Armaments Ministry.

Yes, evidently those documents are invisible to some people here. And so it goes.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 21 Aug 2023 18:03

My book is about 70% done. There are a few sections I'm still researching. The title I posted is not the actual title. I'm currently waiting for the arrival of two more books that should shed further light on a few things.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 Aug 2023 21:07

williamjpellas wrote:
21 Aug 2023 17:56
Ed West, do you have a publication date for your book or an estimated time to completion?

You are 100% correct about the massive numbers of slave laborers employed by the SS in most of their large construction projects, including the German nuclear weapons effort. They also had, in today's terms, billions of dollars in stolen and liquidated war booty. As you know, the SS was a state within a state with its own economy and administrative apparatus, and it was the SS, together with the German military, that funded the nuclear program, not Speer and his Reich Armaments Ministry.

Yes, evidently those documents are invisible to some people here. And so it goes.
This varies far more than you give credit. The Heer (army), SS, and Luftwaffe all had various weapons programs going on. The V-1 and SAM systems were Luftwaffe run, with a bit of army help. The SS had other programs and sometimes very late in the war took over army or air force programs. There was a lot of duplication of effort, empire building, and other inefficiencies built into the Nazi system. Many projects got funding based more on the charisma of its leadership and internal politics than on sound engineering and scientific reasoning.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 22 Aug 2023 01:13

How about some more of the nonexistent declassified primary source documents and photographs that describe a far larger and much more advanced WWII German nuclear weapons program than the hoi polloi around here would have you believe?

U.S. Military Attache, U.S. Embassy in Istanbul. 18 December 1943. [AFHRA A1261 electronic version p. 27] Source: M/A Istanbul, Turkey, #8609, 18 December 1943.

“In the course of a violent argument with a Bulgarian officer, an engineer of the Todt organization revealed in Sofia that the Germans now possess a new type of incendiary far surpassing anything yet used in warfare. The engineer intimated that London would suffer a fate worse than that of Berlin or Hamburg in the near future. The Japanese have been given technical details about some new German weapon, possibly this one.”

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Fritz Houtermans. Letter to Werner Czulius. 28 November 1944. AMPG, I. Abt. Rep. 34, Nr. 53, Bl. 1–2 [Nagel 2012a, pp. 639–640].

[...] The best is undoubtedly to measure as far as possible and to extrapolate it with 0.105 or 0.106. Bakker’s value I think is too low. I also talked with Bothe about the question of how far the decay of Acr 2 can be approximated by an exponential function at great distances, and he told me that for a complex spectrum he had calculated a value of B, which is probably due to the free path of the fastest neutrons, but only very slowly, i. e. at very great distances. It is just as always with several exponential functions, e.g. in the radioactive decay of two bodies with short and long half lives, he just meant, it was slower. I do not know which value you should take for the source of fluoride, because I have not worked with such a source. If you cannot measure it yourself, I have chosen one from the Tuve-Hafsad values of artificial sources which extrapolating corresponds to a primary neutron spectrum with a similar upper limit (I believe D+D, forward, approximately). For Li + D, we have found 1/B = 10.8 cm, also forward, which is quite the same as for Ra+Be, which shows that the energy dependence does not matter very much. Thus, CaF2 may also be expected to have a suitable interpolated value. [...]

^^^^ This means he is talking about thermonuclear weapons and how to detonate them. In World War II.

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U.S. Embassy, Warsaw. 12 August 1947. Report No. R-107-47, MIS-390731. Subject: Plants producing heavy water. [NARA RG 319, Entry 85A, Box 2534, Folder 390731– 390740] See p. 3764 for more information.

1. It is believed that no plants designed specially for the production of heavy water exist in Poland. It is reliably reported that the Germans built one such plant near OSWIECIM (Auschwitz) but that it was destroyed or moved out by the SOVIETS in 1945.

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How about some photos of WWII German ultracentrifuge machinery?

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PS At least one factory in Switzerland "was producing uranium centrifuges and sending them to Germany, apparently in 1942; details are still classified. (H. T. Wensel to Robert Furman, 14 March 1944. NARA RG 227, Microfilm M1392. Bush-Conant File Relating to the Development of the Atomic Bomb, www.PaperlessArchives.com, pp. 6084-6089)".

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Mussolini talking about completed German nuclear weapons in April, 1945.

Benito Mussolini. 20 April 1945 interview. In: Gian Gaetano Cabella. 1948. Testamento politico di Mussolini. Rome: Tosi. p. 45. [http://benitomussoliniblog.altervista.org/ wp content/uploads/2017/04/TESTAMENTO POLITICO MUSSOLINI.pdf]


The famous destroyer bombs are going to be prepared. I have, still a few days ago, received very precise news. Perhaps Hitler does not want to strike the blow except in the absolute certainty that it is decisive. It seems that there are three of them, these bombs, and of astounding effectiveness. The construction of each is tremendously complicated and time-consuming.”

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^^^^ This is from a 1952 patent application by Erich Schumann and Walter Trinks based on largely unmodified work they did for the German Army Weapons Bureau during WWII.

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Here's that pesky General Eisenhower again, along with his buddy, General Bradley. I mean, he must have been a closet Nazi admirer, since "we all know" the Germans were nowhere close to The Bomb. Right?

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Allied spy Erwin Respondek had this to say.

Erwin Respondek, 6 November 1945 [NARA RG 226, Entry A1-210, Box 447, Folder
WN 16162–16171]


Overview of the State of Scientific Work in Germany on the Atomic Bomb (until May 1945).

[...] Prof. Schumann stated around 1944 that the problem of the uranium bomb had
been solved. The bomb should be dropped on a parachute. The ignition device was solved in
a technically simple form. For this purpose, a neutron source is used. At the same time,
however, Prof. Schumann said that so far it had not been possible to bring about the explosive
spontaneous disintegration of uranium. [...]

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How about this 1944 letter written by German nuclear physicist Kurt Diebner? Nothing to see here?

Kurt Diebner. Listing of nuclear research commissions enclosed with a letter to the president of the Reich Research Council. 18 April 1944. [English translation in Hentschel and Hentschel 1996, pp. 322–324; German in Nagel 2016, pp. 512–513].

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Here's Gerard Kuiper, the guy for whom the "Kuiper Belt" in our solar system is named. Here's what he had to say in 1945 just before the end of WWII in Europe.

Gerard P. Kuiper to Frederick E. Terman. 13 March 1945. [University of Arizona Libraries, Special Collections, Gerard P. Kuiper Papers, Box 57, Folder 15, ALSOS Mission (1), 1945, p. 61. https://speccoll.library.arizona.edu/co ... iperpapers]

“[...] One is again surprised to see quotations from U.S. senators who think that the war will be over “within a few days”. It would be wiser to worry about the chance we still have of losing it if certain high explosives are developed in time. This possibility may, incidentally, be one reason why the Germans are not giving in. Few people here [in Alsos] expect an immediate collapse.”

Image

Gerard Kuiper
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 22 Aug 2023 01:29

Oh nose! This may incite the locals. Speaking on my behalf, thank you very much.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 22 Aug 2023 01:45

“We can still lose this war” - General George Patton wrote this in his diary in January, 1945. In June, 1945, he told his family that he would not see them again. See Target Patton by Robert K. Wilcox.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 22 Aug 2023 01:56

ewest89 wrote:
22 Aug 2023 01:29
Oh nose! This may incite the locals. Speaking on my behalf, thank you very much.
Rock on. I am definitely looking forward to reading your book. Do you have a publisher lined up yet, or are you going the self-publishing or subsidy publishing route?

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 22 Aug 2023 02:14

I'm in no hurry to finish it. I've been in book publishing for 40 years. It would be published by myself. I'm a working book editor and researcher.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 22 Aug 2023 21:05

ewest89 wrote:
22 Aug 2023 02:14
I'm in no hurry to finish it. I've been in book publishing for 40 years. It would be published by myself. I'm a working book editor and researcher.
Fair enough, but there are very few of us in the world today who know anything at all about what the archives of the combatant nations of WWII actually contain. To my knowledge there are currently only around two dozen (at most) serious writer-researchers active in the west who are interested in this topic and sufficiently knowledgeable to properly assess newly released information as it is declassified and becomes available to the public. Therefore I urge you to please consider completing your book sooner rather than later. Although we are probably writing mostly for posterity (if there is any) rather than for people in the present day, nevertheless your own considerable research could be lost to history if you don't commit it to paper.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 22 Aug 2023 22:29

Speaking generally, most people are unaware that the National Archives in the U.S. releases a new group of declassified documents every 3 months. However, the titles are bland or not very specific. The alternative is a Freedom of Information Act request, but if a person does not know the exact document title it may result in the response being: "We have found no document that is responsive to your request." I know a few people who are serious about military history who have hired private researchers to go to archives to look for certain documents.

Concerning my book, I just need a few more details for one section, and a bit more than that for another. The two books I'm waiting for should provide sufficient material to complete those sections. I'll try to pick up the pace. I appreciate your comments.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 24 Aug 2023 02:56

Oh, I could toss in here that there is no discussion of the extensive interviews and collection of documentation done by the US (and British and French equivalents) of FIAT (Field Information Agency, Technical) as part of the OTS (Office of Technical Services) that among other things sent a 28 man team to various I G Farben plants where they collected masses of documents, often microfilming them, and interviewed at length scientists, engineers, and even the company's top management about what they were doing.

In all of that, it never comes up that the company was enriching uranium. There's lots of stuff on chemicals, petroleum products, synthetic rubber, coal conversion to other products, etc., but nothing on uranium.

Why is that? I G Farben's staff participated willingly, and even helped in making sure the Allied investigators got what they wanted.

The FIAT missions, along with individual corporations sending investigators, and the military running operations like Paperclip (one of several), combed Germany for all sorts of technology and industrial activity. The French and British did likewise, as did the Soviets in their sector. Yet, in all of that, not one of these many teams of investigators found evidence of a mass uranium enrichment program. Instead, they consistently found bits and pieces of a nuclear program in Germany that had gone nowhere.

They even captured and interviewed most of the important players in that field, to the same end. So, what documentation and interviews are there that conclusively prove otherwise? From what I see, the answer is "None."

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 24 Aug 2023 16:51

Mister Gardner,

You only prefer what you want. You ignore documents posted on this thread. Why is that? Such as a Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency report that mentions manned rocket launches. Ignoring documents does not make them go away.

I have two books about I.G. Farben, both, I'm sure, unknown here. Nothing about uranium enrichment although the company certainly built the "Buna" plant in Poland which never produced any.

But the problem is you and others ignoring declassified documents. Ask yourself: Why were they classified Secret and Top Secret? If there was nothing to the German atomic program then there was nothing to hide.

You prefer the commonly told stories, that, it appears, you think exposed all. Apparently not.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 24 Aug 2023 20:02

There's no cure for willful ignorance. But for those actually reading this thread and who might read it in the future, here is still more information from Dr. Todd Rider's immense study, Forgotten Creators.

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Former MIT Senior Staff Scientist Dr. Todd Rider

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Doubtless some here have heard of the notorious SS commando leader Otto Skorzeny.

SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Otto Skorzeny. [Skorzeny 1995, pp. 161, 169]

In October 1944, after the Budapest operation, I flew once again to Fuhrer Headquarters in East Prussia. Preparations were just being made for the Ardennes offensive and Hitler wanted to give me his instructions for Operation Greif.

[...] He assured me that the German Army would triumph in the end in spite of treason and mistakes. This offensive would be successful. Apart from that, “new, truly revolutionary weapons would take the enemy completely by surprise.”

There was much talk about German “secret weapons” at this time, and Dr. Goebbels’ propaganda did its best to nourish these rumors. [...] However most talk was about another, terrible weapon that was supposed to be based on artificially produced radioactivity.

[...] Included in the V-weapons program was the construction of a rocket capable of bombarding New York or Moscow. This rocket was practically finished at the end of March 1945 and could have gone into series production beginning in July.

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Otto Skorzeny

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Henry Picker, 2009, Hitlers Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier, (Hitler’s Table Talks) 2nd ed., pp. 42, 493:

[…] And how much more death, war damage, refugees, and destruction would have been the result if Hitler’s opponents had not won—as Churchill said—“five minutes before midnight” and thus thwarted Hitler’s new end-run defense in the spring of 1945. For with the A-9 “interglobal rockets” developed in Peenemunde, which also (would have) reached their targets in the USA, and with the small-pumpkin-sized “uranium bombs” (with their full destructive energy in a 3-km radius), which according to Schaub’s information had been developed to ready prototypes at the Reichspost’s research office in Lichterfeld, if Hitler had been able to make these weapons actually deployed, the suffering, the cruelty, the harshness, the extension, and the duration of World War II would certainly have been multiplied. […] According to (Hitler's adjutant Julius) Schaub, the “terrible weapons” meant above all the “uranium bomb” with the size of a small pumpkin which was to be produced in an underground SS plant in the southern Harz region (with a production capacity of 30,000 workers). The plant was relocated to the USSR by the Red Army in 1945 after Germany’s unconditional surrender.

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Werner Grothmann, 2002 interview, Jonastalverein Archive, pp. 31–32:

It is known to me that there were four atomic tests. The first still in 1943 in the autumn in the North Sea, which failed. Then two in 1944 in the autumn and the late autumn. One of them on the ground, that is on a small stand, the later one in the atmosphere on a parachute. That one in winter 1944 in the air was highly explosive and the charge [fuel] was also larger. That could have been in November. The last test was then again with a small charge in March 1945. […] I can definitely declare that I was told of six atomic bombs that came from three different research installations. All were prototypes. In addition, there were some very small devices that were intended for laboratory experiments.”

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Himmler's Adjutant Werner Grothmann

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Heinrich Himmler's physical therapist, Felix Kersten [Kersten 1947, pp. 252-253, 256-258]:

“When I returned to Himmler's headquarters in December [1944] I found him singularly optimistic. Once again he was prophesying a German victory! [...] Himmler saw my bewilderment and said: "Very soon we shall put our last secret weapon into use. And that will change the war situation entirely!" [...]

Early in March 1945 I paid one of my last visits to Himmler's headquarters... He was more optimistic than ever before! In his conversations with me he returned to the subject of the mysterious secret weapon. He made some strange assertions, and I kept a careful record of these. "Most people," he said, "think we have lost the war, and I cannot deny that apparently they have reason. But we have not yet used our last secret weapon. V-1 and V-2 bombs are effective secret weapons, but the secret weapon we still have up our sleeves will have an effect no one can even imagine. One or two shots and cities like New York or London will simply vanish from the earth! Allied aviation has destroyed many essential factories for its manufacture. That is why we are behind in our schedule. But in a month or two you will read all about it in the papers. Then you will realize that I know what I am talking about." [...]

This talk aroused my curiosity. I began giving heed to some very wild rumors--or so I had thought them--which seemed to be in line with Himmler's veiled disclosures. And when Kriminalrat Obersturmfuehrer Goering, a trustworthy man (unlike his homonym) told me something about the "secret weapon" I believed him. He said that a village had been built near Auschwitz for experimental purposes. They wanted to "try out" the new weapon. For the purpose, twenty thousand Jewish men, women, and children had been brought to live in this village. A single shell had been fired on the settlement. It had caused six thousand degrees of heat, and the whole village--houses, human beings, and animals included--was burnt to ashes.

Obviously, as I see it now in retrospect, the Germans had nearly completed their atomic bomb and were almost ready to use it on the enemy when the encirclement of Berlin was complete.”

Image

Felix Kersten

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Air Raid, Sabotage Held Up Nazi Work on Atomic Bomb. Paducah Sun Democrat (Paducah, Kentucky) 23 August 1945. PRAGUE, Aug. 23

“(AP) — A shattering American air raid, Czech sabotage and an accident frustrated German experiments in Czechoslovakia seeking to develop an atomic bomb, newspaper accounts said here today. A German engineer named Eisenbeck worked with the problem of releasing atomic energy in a radio plant at Vysocany, the accounts said. A blast and fire at the plant in 1943 followed by an American raid halted work soon after the plant resumed operations. Some mysterious apparatus was dispatched to the Imperial Research Institute in Berlin, but Czech workers believed they managed to damage the delicate mechanism before it was shipped, the stories said.”

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Abd al-Karim Umar, Muzakkirat al-Hagg Muhammad Amin al-Husaini [The Memoirs of al-Hagg Muhammad Amin al-Husaini], Damascus 1999, p. 127, 162f).

“In 1944 Al-Husaini described “V-weapons” in (Allied intercepted) letters to the Arab Shakib Arslan. After 1945 the Grand Mufti said that the enemy espionage by “Jewish, English and American intelligence services” caused “the greatest damage.” They were able to discover the locations of “atomic reactors” in East Prussia. Some of the spies were among the 17 million foreign workers. They also betrayed the secret places in Peenemunde on the Baltic Sea in eastern Germany, which were then destroyed by the Allies. A number of German atomic researchers were also killed.

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The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Left, With SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, Right, July, 1943.

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Here is one of my favorites.

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So, you see, EITHER every last one of these and many hundreds more similar pieces of evidence are all factually mistaken, deliberately lying or otherwise fraudulent---and therefore the conventional history as written nearly 80 years ago by Samuel Goudsmit is telling the truth---OR an official government coverup and endgame dirty dealings between, at minimum, the US and certain SS high officials (particularly SS General-Engineer Hans Kammler) has finally been pried loose from various archives and exposed for all to see.

I know which of these two possibilities I believe. What about you?
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 24 Aug 2023 20:31

Facts are facts. The evidence collected so far in original declassified documents clearly points to hiding information about the German atomic program. I have identified the company that made the Ultracentrifuge. General Kammler became the overseer of all secret weapon projects. Those in the German leadership could not risk much after D-Day, so Kammler was chosen to make certain that various projects kept making progress. Members of Otto Skorzeny's commando unit that were captured during the Battle of the Bulge (Wacht am Rhein) operation told their interrogators that their target was General Eisenhower. This alarmed those tasked with guarding him and prompted a look-alike to be placed in uniform in case the Americans had not caught all of of the assassins.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Aug 2023 20:48

ewest89 wrote:
22 Aug 2023 01:45
“We can still lose this war” - General George Patton wrote this in his diary in January, 1945. In June, 1945, he told his family that he would not see them again. See Target Patton by Robert K. Wilcox.
Written during the Battle Of The Bulge. I presume Patton's fear was that the offensive would gain time for all the wunder-waffen to reach the battlefield and turn the tide...............................

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