German Atomic Weapons Program

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Aug 2023 00:23

williamjpellas wrote:
24 Aug 2023 20:02
There's no cure for willful ignorance. But for those actually reading this thread and who might read it in the future, here is still more information from Dr. Todd Rider's immense study, Forgotten Creators.

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Former MIT Senior Staff Scientist Dr. Todd Rider

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Doubtless some here have heard of the notorious SS commando leader Otto Skorzeny.

SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Otto Skorzeny. [Skorzeny 1995, pp. 161, 169]

In October 1944, after the Budapest operation, I flew once again to Fuhrer Headquarters in East Prussia. Preparations were just being made for the Ardennes offensive and Hitler wanted to give me his instructions for Operation Greif.

[...] He assured me that the German Army would triumph in the end in spite of treason and mistakes. This offensive would be successful. Apart from that, “new, truly revolutionary weapons would take the enemy completely by surprise.”

There was much talk about German “secret weapons” at this time, and Dr. Goebbels’ propaganda did its best to nourish these rumors. [...] However most talk was about another, terrible weapon that was supposed to be based on artificially produced radioactivity.

[...] Included in the V-weapons program was the construction of a rocket capable of bombarding New York or Moscow. This rocket was practically finished at the end of March 1945 and could have gone into series production beginning in July.

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Otto Skorzeny

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Henry Picker, 2009, Hitlers Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier, (Hitler’s Table Talks) 2nd ed., pp. 42, 493:

[…] And how much more death, war damage, refugees, and destruction would have been the result if Hitler’s opponents had not won—as Churchill said—“five minutes before midnight” and thus thwarted Hitler’s new end-run defense in the spring of 1945. For with the A-9 “interglobal rockets” developed in Peenemunde, which also (would have) reached their targets in the USA, and with the small-pumpkin-sized “uranium bombs” (with their full destructive energy in a 3-km radius), which according to Schaub’s information had been developed to ready prototypes at the Reichspost’s research office in Lichterfeld, if Hitler had been able to make these weapons actually deployed, the suffering, the cruelty, the harshness, the extension, and the duration of World War II would certainly have been multiplied. […] According to (Hitler's adjutant Julius) Schaub, the “terrible weapons” meant above all the “uranium bomb” with the size of a small pumpkin which was to be produced in an underground SS plant in the southern Harz region (with a production capacity of 30,000 workers). The plant was relocated to the USSR by the Red Army in 1945 after Germany’s unconditional surrender.

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Werner Grothmann, 2002 interview, Jonastalverein Archive, pp. 31–32:

It is known to me that there were four atomic tests. The first still in 1943 in the autumn in the North Sea, which failed. Then two in 1944 in the autumn and the late autumn. One of them on the ground, that is on a small stand, the later one in the atmosphere on a parachute. That one in winter 1944 in the air was highly explosive and the charge [fuel] was also larger. That could have been in November. The last test was then again with a small charge in March 1945. […] I can definitely declare that I was told of six atomic bombs that came from three different research installations. All were prototypes. In addition, there were some very small devices that were intended for laboratory experiments.”

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Himmler's Adjutant Werner Grothmann

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Heinrich Himmler's physical therapist, Felix Kersten [Kersten 1947, pp. 252-253, 256-258]:

“When I returned to Himmler's headquarters in December [1944] I found him singularly optimistic. Once again he was prophesying a German victory! [...] Himmler saw my bewilderment and said: "Very soon we shall put our last secret weapon into use. And that will change the war situation entirely!" [...]

Early in March 1945 I paid one of my last visits to Himmler's headquarters... He was more optimistic than ever before! In his conversations with me he returned to the subject of the mysterious secret weapon. He made some strange assertions, and I kept a careful record of these. "Most people," he said, "think we have lost the war, and I cannot deny that apparently they have reason. But we have not yet used our last secret weapon. V-1 and V-2 bombs are effective secret weapons, but the secret weapon we still have up our sleeves will have an effect no one can even imagine. One or two shots and cities like New York or London will simply vanish from the earth! Allied aviation has destroyed many essential factories for its manufacture. That is why we are behind in our schedule. But in a month or two you will read all about it in the papers. Then you will realize that I know what I am talking about." [...]

This talk aroused my curiosity. I began giving heed to some very wild rumors--or so I had thought them--which seemed to be in line with Himmler's veiled disclosures. And when Kriminalrat Obersturmfuehrer Goering, a trustworthy man (unlike his homonym) told me something about the "secret weapon" I believed him. He said that a village had been built near Auschwitz for experimental purposes. They wanted to "try out" the new weapon. For the purpose, twenty thousand Jewish men, women, and children had been brought to live in this village. A single shell had been fired on the settlement. It had caused six thousand degrees of heat, and the whole village--houses, human beings, and animals included--was burnt to ashes.

Obviously, as I see it now in retrospect, the Germans had nearly completed their atomic bomb and were almost ready to use it on the enemy when the encirclement of Berlin was complete.”

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Felix Kersten

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Air Raid, Sabotage Held Up Nazi Work on Atomic Bomb. Paducah Sun Democrat (Paducah, Kentucky) 23 August 1945. PRAGUE, Aug. 23

“(AP) — A shattering American air raid, Czech sabotage and an accident frustrated German experiments in Czechoslovakia seeking to develop an atomic bomb, newspaper accounts said here today. A German engineer named Eisenbeck worked with the problem of releasing atomic energy in a radio plant at Vysocany, the accounts said. A blast and fire at the plant in 1943 followed by an American raid halted work soon after the plant resumed operations. Some mysterious apparatus was dispatched to the Imperial Research Institute in Berlin, but Czech workers believed they managed to damage the delicate mechanism before it was shipped, the stories said.”

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Abd al-Karim Umar, Muzakkirat al-Hagg Muhammad Amin al-Husaini [The Memoirs of al-Hagg Muhammad Amin al-Husaini], Damascus 1999, p. 127, 162f).

“In 1944 Al-Husaini described “V-weapons” in (Allied intercepted) letters to the Arab Shakib Arslan. After 1945 the Grand Mufti said that the enemy espionage by “Jewish, English and American intelligence services” caused “the greatest damage.” They were able to discover the locations of “atomic reactors” in East Prussia. Some of the spies were among the 17 million foreign workers. They also betrayed the secret places in Peenemunde on the Baltic Sea in eastern Germany, which were then destroyed by the Allies. A number of German atomic researchers were also killed.

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The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Left, With SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, Right, July, 1943.

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Here is one of my favorites.

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So, you see, EITHER every last one of these and many hundreds more similar pieces of evidence are all factually mistaken, deliberately lying or otherwise fraudulent---and therefore the conventional history as written nearly 80 years ago by Samuel Goudsmit is telling the truth---OR an official government coverup and endgame dirty dealings between, at minimum, the US and certain SS high officials (particularly SS General-Engineer Hans Kammler) has finally been pried loose from various archives and exposed for all to see.

I know which of these two possibilities I believe. What about you?
And, once again, there is NOTHING within any of that that confirms, in the least, that Germany had a nuclear weapon. It's all just supposition, bragado, and rumor. This is how conspiracy theorists work. They take vague, generalized, statements and twist them into detailed fact.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Aug 2023 01:29

You are of the following mindset: document interpretation avoidance, along with a related problem, document alternate explanation.

When a mind is so conditioned and reads the documents, the plain language is automatically converted into "any other explanation but the plain language." In other words, the plain language gets converted to what you want it to mean. That is the problem here, nothing else.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Aug 2023 02:02

ewest89 wrote:
25 Aug 2023 01:29
You are of the following mindset: document interpretation avoidance, along with a related problem, document alternate explanation.

When a mind is so conditioned and reads the documents, the plain language is automatically converted into "any other explanation but the plain language." In other words, the plain language gets converted to what you want it to mean. That is the problem here, nothing else.
Wrong! I am reading what is written and not reading anything extra into it. You and Pellas read into these documents what you want to believe, not accept what is written.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Aug 2023 02:22

Can you give me an example? I want to point out that all of the scientists William Pellas pointed out worked on the German atomic program. That some of those scientists ended up working in Russia, the United States and England right after the war. Can you explain how scientists who knew next to nothing about uranium enrichment or how to build a working reactor would be needed in any way?

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Aug 2023 03:23

ewest89 wrote:
25 Aug 2023 02:22
Can you explain how scientists who knew next to nothing about uranium enrichment or how to build a working reactor would be needed in any way?
Newton's search for The Philosophers Stone was carried out alongside his work on (among other things)Gravity. When challenged modern Alchemists use Newton's research as an Appeal to Authority-much like you are doing.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Aug 2023 16:12

Why do you write such fiction? The following is the title of an intelligence report. I've seen the entire report.

Investigations, Research, Developments, and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb.

A man named Zinsser described the effects of the detonation of an atomic bomb while flying in an He 111. Toward the end he expresses his concern about these tests being carried out so close to populated areas. So this was not a one off event. It was the U.S. Navy that transported captured atomic bombs to the Pacific.

NARA, College Park, Maryland, in RG-38, Chief of Naval Operations (CNO), Intelligence Division, Top Secret Reports of Naval Attaches 1944-1947 (Formerly Entry 98C), Box 9.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Aug 2023 17:14

ewest89 wrote:
25 Aug 2023 16:12
Why do you write such fiction? The following is the title of an intelligence report. I've seen the entire report.

Investigations, Research, Developments, and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb.

A man named Zinsser described the effects of the detonation of an atomic bomb while flying in an He 111. Toward the end he expresses his concern about these tests being carried out so close to populated areas. So this was not a one off event. It was the U.S. Navy that transported captured atomic bombs to the Pacific.

NARA, College Park, Maryland, in RG-38, Chief of Naval Operations (CNO), Intelligence Division, Top Secret Reports of Naval Attaches 1944-1947 (Formerly Entry 98C), Box 9.
Show me in any of the documents you or pellas has posted in this thread where it definitively states there is a nuclear program in Germany that has produced x amount of weapons grade enriched uranium, or that sufficient means of enriching uranium were discovered including some estimate of that capacity, or specific information about the manufacture of a nuclear weapon(s) including the manufacturer(s), location of production, etc.

There is NOTHING specific about anything like that in any of the documents you presented. Instead, it's all rumor, supposition, personal anecdote, speculation, and the like.

If there were a German nuclear program large enough to produce a weapon by 1945, there would be lots and lots of physical evidence. Instead, there are bits and pieces of a research program that didn't go anywhere presented as if these were sufficient to satisfy the need for evidence.

Look at the US program. There's Oak Ridge, a small city on its own. Hanford with half-a-dozen working breeder reactors for plutonium. The US has a dozen plus other reactors in various locations, they're producing masses of heavy water and have a working reactor using it. There are labs all over the country working on research that have the sort of equipment the Germans had but in larger quantities. The number of centrifuges the US has overwhelms what Germany had, and they aren't mostly in ones and twos in research labs.

Trying little more than an appeal to authority is an irrelevance.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Aug 2023 17:38

Are these the stories you repeat to yourself on a regular basis? The document I cited exists, along with other documents. The U.S. Navy was not in the habit of publishing speculation. Why did Patton go to Czechoslovakia toward the end of the war? Why was the SS put in charge of Bohemia and Moravia? Uranium mining operations occurred there on a large scale during the war at Joachimstahl.

"The underground installations were amazing. They were literally subterranean towns. There were 4 in and around Ohrdruf: one near the horror camp, one under the Schloss, and 2 west of the town. Others were reported in nearby villages. None were natural caves or mines. All were man-made military installations. The horror camp had provided the labour. An interesting feature of the construction was the absence of any spoil. It had been carefully scattered in hills miles away.” --Colonel Allen wrote in his book "Lucky Forward: The History of Patton's 3rd US Army," published by Vanguard Press, New York, 1947.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Aug 2023 21:20

I never said the documents didn't exist. I even read all the ones you and pellas have posted. What I did say, and I will reiterate here is:

There is NOTHING specific about anything like that in any of the documents you presented. Instead, it's all rumor, supposition, personal anecdote, speculation, and the like.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Aug 2023 21:34

Ever heard of Georgy Zhukov? You know, Stalin's top field commander in WWII? None of the usual suspects here will read this, of course, but for anyone else who is actually interested, immediately below is the English translation of the complete text of Zhukov's personal report to Stalin on the German nuclear weapons program in WWII. This doesn't sound much like Goudsmit or the chorus that has obediently echoed his demonstrable falsehoods for the past 75-plus years.

Marshal Georgy Zhukov. 2 October 1945. Report to Joseph Stalin [Archive of the President of the Russian Federation, Fund 93, Division 77 (45), List 4–11, published in Riabev 2006c, pp. 60–64].

2 October 1945 Sov. Secret Ex. No. 1

Moscow

Generalissimo of the Soviet Union to Comrade Stalin I.V.

In August and September, a group of employees of the Soviet Military Administration organized an inspection in the Soviet occupation zone, which was done by German scientists in the field of creating an atomic bomb. I present brief conclusions from what I have been able to establish:

1. After the discovery in 1939 by Professor Hahn and Dr. Strassmann in Germany of the uranium decay, a society was created to use atomic energy obtained from the fission of the atom. The society included: Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Physics. Berlin-Dahlem (American zone). In 1943, it was evacuated to Hechingen (American zone), led by Professor Heisenberg and staff.

Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Chemistry. Berlin-Dahlem (American zone). Evacuated to Tailfingen (American zone), led by Professor Hahn, Dr. Strassmann, and staff.

Technische Hochschule. Berlin, Institute of Physics, Professor Geiger. Dr. Diebner’s working group. Berlin, later Stadtilm (Thuringia)—Soviet zone. Dr. Diebner, Dr. Czulius, Dr. Hartwig, Dr. Berkei, Professor Gerlach. (Diebner and Heisenberg greatly disliked each other and in part for this reason, Diebner eventually made his way to the Army Ordnance and SS parts of the overall nuclear program. — WP)

Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Brain Research, Genetic Department. Dr. Zimmer, Professor Timofeeff. Berlin-Buch (Soviet zone). Physikalische-Techische Reichsanstalt, Radiological Department. Dr. Weiss.

Research Institute of the Reichspost, Miersdorf, Berlin (Soviet zone). Dr. Otterbein, Professor Flugge.

Kaiser Wilhelm Medical Research Institute, Physics Department. Heidelberg (American zone). Professor Bothe.

Physics Institute of Leipzig University. Professor Hofmann, Professor Dopel, Professor Heisenberg, Professor Pose. Physicochemical Institute of the University of Leipzig. Leipzig (Soviet zone). Professor Bonhoeffer.

Physicochemical Institute, University of Hamburg. Hamburg (English zone). Professor Harteck, Professor Jensen, Professor Knauer.

Physics Institute, University of Strasbourg (France). Professors Fleischmann, von Weizsacker.

Second Physics Institute, University of Vienna. Professors Stetter, Ortmann.

Institute of Physics, University of Cologne (English zone). Professor Kirchner.

Physics Institute, University of Gottingen (English zone).

Institute of Chemistry, University of Kiel (English zone). Dr. Martin.

Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Biochemistry. Frankfurt am Main (American zone). Professor Raevsky.

Institute of Chemistry, Danzig University (Poland). Professor Albers.

Physics Institute of the University of Bon (France). Professors Schmitz, Schmitz-Dumont.

French College (Paris). Professor Bothe.

Physics Institute. Munich (American zone). Professor Clusius. I

In addition, the study of the atomic nucleus in Germany was carried out by the following leading German scientists:

Von Laue – US zone

Professor von Ardenne [USSR]

Professor Kallmann – Berlin, Westend (English zone)

Professor Flugge – US area

Professor Max Planck – Rodetz, USSR zone

Professor Pascual [Jordan] – Gottingen, University (US zone) --- Jordan, along with Flugge, was mentioned specifically by name in the Kuroda Papers, which are probably the single more important piece of primary source evidence concerning the Japanese program that has emerged to date.

Professor Gustav Hertz [USSR]

Professor Smekal – whereabouts unknown

Professor Erich Regener – Friedrichshafen, Bodensee (American zone)

Professor Hans Bauer – Vienna Professor Stark – Bavaria (American zone)

Professor Seliger – Greifswalde (Soviet zone)

Professor Bechter – Munich (American zone)

Dr. Ullman – Berlin (US area)

Professor Westphal – Berlin, Zehlendorf (American zone)

Most of the major scientists working in this field were evacuated to southern Germany by the Allies.

2. In 1941, the German [Army] Ordnance Office, the Navy Research Institute, and the Air Force Research Institute set the task for the companies Pinch [or Hinch, maybe Henschel?], Siemens, and Allgemeine Elektricitats-Gesellschaft [AEG] to create atomic weapons. <<<< HERE is the beginning of the real German nuclear weapons program, NOT Heisenberg and NOT the KWI (though it played an important role later on), despite Samuel Goudsmit’s seeming obsession with Heisenberg and his false characterization of Heisenberg as the lead scientist. Nearly simultaneous to this event was the launch of an atomic bomb program run through the Reichspost, the German post office. This effort and all of the other various branches of wartime German nuclear R&D were subsequently amalgamated, perhaps in some cases forcibly, by the SS. The reason for the uncertainty of the name of the third German company has to do with the vagaries of translation from Russian to English. — WP

For the practical implementation of this task, German scientists worked:

a) on the production of pure uranium oxide (coded under the name “preparation No. 38”) and then from it—uranium metal.

The firms of the Auergesellschaft (specifically bombed by the USAAF just before it fell to the advancing Soviets — WP) and Degussa (Frankfurt am Main, American zone) were used.

The scientific advisors were Drs. Riehl, Zimmer, Schulenburg;

b) on the production of the isotope uranium-235.

Scientists have found that the active element (ie, capable of explosion) is uranium-235, which is only 0.7% of the total uranium mixture.

The main specialists in the field of isotope separation in Germany were Professor Harteck, Dr. Groth, who, together with the chief designer of the Anschutz company (Kiel, English zone), Dr. Beyerle, invented an ultracentrifuge built by the above company, as well as by the Hellige company (Breslau, USSR zone). --- Did Harteck say much of anything about this at Farm Hall? No. Was Groth taken to Farm Hall following his capture by the British T-Force at war's end? No. What did Groth tell his British captors? Note that he was also a major figure in the SS hydrogen bomb project. -- WP

Another method for separating uranium isotopes and obtaining uranium-235 was proposed by Dr. Bagge (Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Physics);

c) over the organization of the production of heavy water.

Heavy water in Germany was initially brought from Norway (Norsk Hydro plant). (In fact there are at least 19 additional sites that were located in Germany or German-occupied territory, including two in Norway and one or two in Italy, where heavy water was produced or suspected to be in production in WWII. — WP.) After the termination of supplies from Norway, the Germans tried to organize their own production of heavy water in the city of Merseburg (zone of the USSR), the Leunawerke plant at two installations—“small” and “large,” and at the Bitterfeld plant.

Currently at the Leunawerke plant the “small installation” has been fixed again on September 7. The “large installation,” destroyed by bombing during its construction, is being restored.

Scientific works were supervised by Professors Harteck, Jensen, Bonhoeffer, Clusius;

d) on the creation of the “Uranium-machine” installation as a source of energy obtained as a result of uranium disintegration. (uranium machine = wartime German reactor work -- WP)

3. At the direction of Professor Bonhoeffer (Leipzig, Soviet zone), valuable information about the practical application of the Hahn-Strassmann process could be given by Professor Dopel, Professor Pose, and Professor Hund (Leipzig, USSR zone). The latter showed that he knew about the existence of the atomic bomb, but the details were unknown to him. (Repeat: "...he knew about the existence of the atomic bomb", quote-unquote. -- WP)

Professor Hund considers the Hechingen and Tailfingen (American zone) institutes to be important institutes where work on the atomic bomb was carried out.

4. It was established that Professor Heisenberg (Hechingen, American zone) was engaged in the practical issues of making the atomic bomb. (Not what he said at Farm Hall, now was it. -- WP) Gerlach (Munich, American zone) was in charge of all secret materials.

5. The Germans created to disintegrate the atomic nucleus:

– the cyclotron, built by Siemens-Schuckert, is located in Heidelberg (American zone) in an almost finished condition;

– the cyclotron built by the Pinch [or Hinch, maybe Henschel?] company in Beaune (France) has been in operation for several months;

– an installation with a high voltage of 5 million volts (Hennigsdorf, Soviet zone);

– the large cyclotron of Allgemeine Elektricitats-Gesellschaft [AEG] in the Reichspost Zeuthen Institute (Soviet zone). Construction is not finished yet.

At the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Berlin-Dahlem (American zone), there is a structure for a cyclotron, not completely finished.

From the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute we have removed part of the archive of the Main Directorate of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, as well as laboratory and chemical preparations of Professor Hahn.

At present, in the city of Stadtilm (Thuringia, Soviet zone), Dr. Hartwig and Berkei are from the working group of Dr. Diebner (Dr. Diebner was the initiator of the creation of the working society for the use of atomic energy obtained from the decay of the atom). -- This appears to have morphed into the bomb and reactor project run by the German Army Weapons Bureau -- WP

There is also a laboratory for experiments with the “Uran-machine,” various laboratory equipment, chemicals and a physicochemical library (2,000 volumes).

According to Dr. Berkei and Hartwig, at the departure of Dr. Diebner with the Americans to the south of Germany (American zone) the following equipment and raw materials were taken:

– radium — about 4 grams;

– metal-uranium — about 1 ton (was this enriched uranium metal? — WP)

– heavy water — 400 kg;

– 2 sets of measuring equipment for measuring machine experiments;

– photographic laboratory;

– technical library;

– instruments required for laboratory equipment: transformers, capacitors, rheostats, amplifiers, meters, vacuum pumps, etc. When the Americans left, they took away about 10 tons of uranium oxide, beryllium, all available documentation, including personnel cards.

According to Dr. Hartwig and Dr. Berkei, Dr. Osenberg (who booked scientists on important government issues) handed over the complete list of the latter to the Americans.

Based on the collected materials, it can be concluded that the German scientists in the field of theoretical and practical research and application of atomic energy have achieved good results up to the creation of the atomic bomb. (Repeat: "....up to the creation of the atomic bomb", quote-unquote. — WP.)

According to German scientists, the Americans partially took advantage of the results of the work of German scientists on this issue. (A possible reference to the long-rumored transfer of German implosion bomb technology, specifically bomb fuzing, to the US via the captured submarine U-234. — WP)

All materials on the above issue, as well as those removed from the Institute Kaiser Wilhelm’s chemical preparations, a group of German scientists in the field of atomic energy and the equipment, materials and a library available in Stadtilm, containing about 2,000 volumes, we handed over to the representative of the NKVD of the USSR, who arrived in Berlin, Lieutenant Colonel Comrade Sidenko on 19 September 1945.

In the future, I would consider it necessary to use the remaining group of scientists and the laboratory of the Physical Chemistry Institute in Stadtilm (Soviet zone) to collect German scientists working on atomic energy, and after gathering these scientists, evacuate them to the Soviet Union.

Commander-in-Chief of the Group of Soviet Occupation Forces in Germany,

Marshal of the Soviet Union G. Zhukov


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Last edited by williamjpellas on 25 Aug 2023 22:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Aug 2023 21:42

Perhaps you will consider the direct action recommended in the following:

"... a letter from Brig. Gen. George McDonald to Major Ernst Englander. He was commissioned by the chief of the Air Force Intelligence Service in Washington, McDonald writes, to collect information on various aspects of German underground works and installations. In the context of recent scientific developments, it was of paramount importance for future planning and of the highest priority “that we obtain all the benefit of the experience of German industry regarding the use of such facilities.” To prepare for this study, McDonald commissioned Englander: “to make the necessary arrangements to personally interrogate Speer, Kammler and Sauer [Karl-Otto Saur] and report your findings to me as soon as possible.”

"The recipient of the letter, Ernst Englander, was the chief interrogator of the Air Force intelligence service, who worked closely with the U.S. prosecutor for the Nuremberg trials, Robert Jackson. Englander was commissioned by McDonald to ask specifically about underground installations while interrogating the three prisoners who knew best about it: Albert Speer, Hans Kammler and Karl-Otto Saur."

"What the Air Force was interested in with its “Special Project” regarding the “German Underground Structures” becomes clear from a report dated August 29, 1945, to the Commanding General of USAFE, in which McDonald talks about his impressions of visiting the underground facilities reported: It would be of the utmost importance to paralyze or destroy such installations in case of a war. His recommendation: “It is recommended, that this paper be forwarded to Headquarters, Army Air Forces, with the idea of selecting targets of the above mentioned types for secret experiment of rocket propelled atomic bomb.”

Perhaps you can explain how the United States obtained and planned to use something that I suspect you would believe did not exist -- a rocket propelled atomic bomb.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Aug 2023 21:49

More from Werner Grothmann and the series of interviews he gave to his neighbor, Wolf Krotzky, between 2000 and Grothmann's death in 2002. Grothmann was an eyewitness and a member of Himmler's inner circle in the SS.

“[p. 9] I found it amusing, however, that our best piece, the giant rocket, which was to fly to America, had just been built in a plant that was not big at all. Well, those were the prototypes for the flight tests. The mass production would then be closer to the military training base [Ohrdruf], where there was a good possibility to camouflage the enormous things in a depression up to the launch. So the rocket would have been built in a very large plant, which was also supposed to produce one [kind] of the nuclear bombs. This would have happened on two different floors, but then there would have been a common path for both components. Why (Walther) Gerlach was involved there, is still not clear to me today. It may be that Himmler was correct in his estimation that Gerlach would have avoided too much proximity to us because he would pursue his own plans.

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German Nuclear Physicist Walther Gerlach, the "Reich Plenipotentiary for Physics"

Because that was clear: the rocket production, especially for the America rocket, was our own thing, we would not have given it away. It was all under our control. If now one of the two kinds of atomic bombs was built and assembled in the same complex, we would have been able to ensure the protection of the system much more efficiently.

[p. 10] One arrived at the designation V 4 because of the mental proximity to the A 4, or the V 2. This was the real long-range rocket for America. From Thuringia it would have reached only the east coast, but there lay the cities that were important to us. V 4 had been chosen because it was basically a further development of the V2, albeit with two stages and more than double the height, but not with a higher payload. The first attack with full cargo was actually scheduled for October 45. After the test of the test bomb in March 45 and when one could see that the front was no longer held anywhere, hotheads from the political side had demanded an attack with the prototype [America rocket] and a hastily assembled uranium bomb. But that was none of us, and it was quite opposed, as I said before. In addition, it would have been a ridiculous attempt because there was not enough [fissionable] material and the rocket had never been tested.

[p. 11] Gerlach did not go to Bormann until we got the first successful launch of our big rocket or the big rocket for the distance from Thuringia to London, which was also a new development. That was on March 16th. I will never forget that, when Himmler’s staff got phone calls from people, whom I had never heard of before and who acted as if we had now won the war.

[p. 18] In February or early March, the goal of the first attack on America in October was reaffirmed internally. In the consultation there were papers that (SS Commando leader Otto) Skorzeny had put together for the rocket technicians, or he certainly had not written them himself, rather someone from his people, and explanations were also discussed by the scientists. It looked like we could do it.

The large rocket had already been under construction for a long time, and those who saw it, or the parts for it, were impressed. We were certainly convinced of the technical preparation for the weapon and the carrier, that it would then work. In any case, we were convinced of the technical preparations for the weapon and the launch vehicle, that they would work out. It could not have happened sooner. I know some of the literature, which makes it such exaggerated claims. The authors just overlook the fact that a comprehensive attack on cities in America can only be done with strategic weapons, not with tactical ones. Then also the technology had to work safely. Imagine if you throw the ‘egg’ over New York and it does not detonate! In the end, the Americans would deliver it four weeks later on their own. One difficulty was also to reduce the total weight for the large bomb. It had been asked by the engineers again and again to reduce the diameter and the weight, which I believe involved a certain type of bomb, because when I finally heard and saw something, it was quite clear that the diameter of the thing probably could not have been the problem. In any case, it was about the space requirements and the accommodation possibilities in the rocket nose and of course also the payload [mass]. This was an important factor, because it affected the range. By the way, this was also a topic for the aviation engineers at Messerschmitt and Heinkel.

[p. 48] I mean, we had really good people in our own projects, and they had good contacts again to Peenemunde, but they could only confirm what Kammler (SS General-Engineer Hans Kammler) heard from Peenemunde: Either someone pilots the rocket into the target, or it must go fully automatic.

Himmler was skeptical as to whether a pilot could react at that speed. I mean, the rocket was supposed to fly several thousand kilometers. Then there was no remote control that really worked over that distance. Himmler had talked to Ohnesorge (Manfred von Ardenne's patron who funded von Ardenne’s work on nuclear weapons) about that for a while, and I think he had something to do with it. What resulted from that, however, I do not know.

Image

Wilhelm Ohnesorge, Left, With Hitler's Adjutant Julius Schaub, Right

I can remember only one thing, namely our rocket people actually had a small department of, today would have to say, electronics engineers. To our utter surprise and also without our awareness, in the winter of 44 they developed a transmitting and receiving system that could no longer be jammed, because it independently constantly changed the radio frequency. Also, it was very small, really tiny. It weighed only about one kilogram, the receiver I mean. How they have managed to miniaturize this technology is unknown to me. Himmler, however, gave orders to show Ohnesorge the prototype. Whether that happened, I cannot say.”

Image

Werner Grothmann, Far Left, With Himmler and Other SS Personnel
Last edited by williamjpellas on 25 Aug 2023 22:11, edited 4 times in total.

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williamjpellas
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Aug 2023 22:01

Here is a link to a lengthy post by a Chinese PhD which is derived mostly from Dr. Rider's research.

https://www-zhihu-com.translate.goog/qu ... _tr_pto=sc

And here is a recent German newspaper article which quite accurately describes both the latest archival findings and their direct implications for the received history of WWII and the dawn of the nuclear age.

https://www.nnz-online.de/news/news_lan ... 9490&kom=1

Again there are hundreds and hundreds of long secret but now (finally) declassified primary source documents in Dr. Rider's immense study, Forgotten Creators. Anyone who is willing to honestly and thoroughly examine the evidence for themselves can download the book for free at the following link.

https://riderinstitute.org/revolutionary-innovation/

And if anyone would like to read any of the articles I have written that include both Rider's research and my own, they can visit here:

https://theaxisnuclearweaponspage.quora.com/

All honest skeptics are welcome, along with anyone who is willing to do their homework. Trolls will not be tolerated for an instant. I think that's enough for now. Take it away, Ed.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by Michael Kenny » 26 Aug 2023 01:32

williamjpellas wrote:
24 Aug 2023 20:02


Heinrich Himmler's physical therapist, Felix Kersten [Kersten 1947, pp. 252-253, 256-258]:

“When I returned to Himmler's headquarters in December [1944] I found him singularly optimistic. Once again he was prophesying a German victory! [...] Himmler saw my bewilderment and said: "Very soon we shall put our last secret weapon into use. And that will change the war situation entirely!" [...]

Early in March 1945 I paid one of my last visits to Himmler's headquarters... He was more optimistic than ever before! In his conversations with me he returned to the subject of the mysterious secret weapon. He made some strange assertions, and I kept a careful record of these. "Most people," he said, "think we have lost the war, and I cannot deny that apparently they have reason. But we have not yet used our last secret weapon. V-1 and V-2 bombs are effective secret weapons, but the secret weapon we still have up our sleeves will have an effect no one can even imagine. One or two shots and cities like New York or London will simply vanish from the earth! Allied aviation has destroyed many essential factories for its manufacture. That is why we are behind in our schedule. But in a month or two you will read all about it in the papers. Then you will realize that I know what I am talking about." [...]
Meanwhile a man who knew everything that was going on in Germany was at the very same time writing in his Diary about the 'secret weapons' that (it was hoped) would actually save the Reich. It would seem Goebbels (for it was he) was entirely unaware of the super-duper-top, top, top secret information routinely shared with the servants of the SS High Command and the man who's job was to massage Himmler's thighs.. Odd that.
Note he talks about the Jets being in series production in 2-3 months time so was in the loop for planned allocations.
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 26 Aug 2023 02:46

Stick to the topic if you don't mind. SS General Kammler radioed about the Me 262 situation in Prague (Prag-Rusen in German). He was named Inspector of All Jet Fighters. Instead of trumpeting Perfect Victory right after the war, Convair took out a few pages in the 27 August 1945 issue of Life magazine with an article titled "... by the Skin of our Teeth." Here is the first sentence:

"Several times during the European phase of this war, victory was almost within Germany's grasp ... on land, on the sea, or in the air." Impossible? No. It's right there.

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