German Atomic Weapons Program

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 26 Aug 2023 03:42

ewest89 wrote:
26 Aug 2023 02:46
Stick to the topic if you don't mind. SS General Kammler radioed about the Me 262 situation in Prague (Prag-Rusen in German). He was named Inspector of All Jet Fighters. Instead of trumpeting Perfect Victory right after the war, Convair took out a few pages in the 27 August 1945 issue of Life magazine with an article titled "... by the Skin of our Teeth." Here is the first sentence:

"Several times during the European phase of this war, victory was almost within Germany's grasp ... on land, on the sea, or in the air." Impossible? No. It's right there.
Can you name those points / phases? Particularly the sea and air ones...

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by Michael Kenny » 26 Aug 2023 04:22

ewest89 wrote:
26 Aug 2023 02:46


"Several times during the European phase of this war, victory was almost within Germany's grasp ... on land, on the sea, or in the air." Impossible? No. It's right there.
Almost withing grasp? If perhaps they had not been beaten in the Battle Of Britian and refused to face the RN, if they had not exhausted themeselves outside of Moscow and were pushed back by the Soviets and if they had managed to overcome the escorts, carriers in the Atlantic then it is true they MIGHT have had a chance.
Dream on........

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 26 Aug 2023 21:54

Michael Kenny wrote:
26 Aug 2023 04:22
ewest89 wrote:
26 Aug 2023 02:46


"Several times during the European phase of this war, victory was almost within Germany's grasp ... on land, on the sea, or in the air." Impossible? No. It's right there.
Almost withing grasp? If perhaps they had not been beaten in the Battle Of Britian and refused to face the RN, if they had not exhausted themeselves outside of Moscow and were pushed back by the Soviets and if they had managed to overcome the escorts, carriers in the Atlantic then it is true they MIGHT have had a chance.
Dream on........
Wouldn't they have needed an actual navy and air force for that? Just curious...

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 28 Aug 2023 17:02

WMD and MAD calculations were certainly in effect during WWII on both the Allied and Axis sides. But---cue the broken record---because these aspects were either 1) deliberately covered up by the postwar governments 2) hidden behind the Iron Curtain or 3) simply ignored or overlooked by the writers of the postwar histories in the West (or at minimum, in the English speaking world), well then. None of this ever happened, right?

Wrong.

From Forgotten Creators comes this adroit summary:

“A.4.2 Allied/Axis Threats of Mutual Assured Destruction

Unlike the view in conventional history books, the following documents demonstrate that both Axis and Allied forces very nearly used chemical weapons and other weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) in World War II, and that the threats by both sides to use chemical and other WMDs played an enormously important role in how and why the war was waged as it actually was.

Germany stockpiled and very seriously considered using its chemical weapons (both the newer ones like nerve agents and the older ones like mustard agent) against Allied targets, especially to halt Russian advances on the Eastern Front. It also appears to have had fuel-air explosives (p. 544), biological weapons (Section A.3), and nuclear weapons (Appendix D; see especially Section D.13).

The United States and United Kingdom stockpiled and very seriously considered using their own copies of the chemical weapons that Germany had invented in the previous war (mustard and phosgene) with the explicit goal of killing millions of civilians in German cities. In addition, the U.K. had a stockpile of anthrax-infected cattle feed that could be dropped on German farms, and the U.S. had fission products from its recently built breeder reactors that could be dropped on German cities as a radiological weapon.


These documents show that the Allies considered using their chemical and other WMDs not only in response to any use of German chemical weapons, but also in response to the use of other novel German weapons, such as V-2 rockets carrying conventional explosives. Thus the Allies almost certainly would have launched a massive attack on German civilian populations if Germany had used any form of WMDs, including nuclear or biological weapons. This was confirmed by the German general Heinrich Kittel in a secret recording in January 1945 (p. 3333). See also pp. 2482– 2483.

These documents are also a clear example of how Allied countries covered up important wartime events and decisions, kept information about them classified for decades, and are known to still be keeping relevant archival documents classified and unavailable to the public and to historians.

Thus behind the conventional warfare history of World War II that the public knows, there was a far less visible yet likely even more important game of deterrence and brinksmanship between the Allied and Axis forces involving weapons of mass destruction. On the Allied side were massive numbers of crude but effective weapons. On the Axis side were massive numbers of far more sophisticated chemical weapons, as well as currently unclear but apparently quite real numbers of nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and other novel weapons such as fuel-air explosives. Each side appears to have been well aware of the threats posed by the other side, and that shaped their strategic choices in how the war played out.

[For additional information and archival references, see Gellermann 1986.]

The details of these Axis and Allied programs should be clarified, and this aspect of the war should be given the treatment it deserves in books on the history of World War II.”

Henry Picker. 2009. Hitlers Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier. 2nd ed. Berlin: Propylaen-Taschenbuch bei Ullstein. p. 668.

“For this reason, in Oct./Nov. 1944, Hitler again made inquiries of the British government concerning a minimum agreement that would tolerate the British maintaining their Empire and Germany stabilizing the Eastern Front on the Memel-Kaschau [Klaipeda— Kosice] line, closely following the Narew and Vistula Rivers. At Ley’s suggestion, Hitler wanted to place a poison gas curtain between the German and Russian troops on this front, which was about 750 km long. In preparation, he had already had millions of gas masks produced for the German Wehrmacht and gas war preparations ordered. For the poison gas wall Hitler wanted to use the warfare agents mustard and tabun. Since 1939, he had an average of 3,100 tons of mustard and 1,000 tons of tabun produced every month. Mustard made areas contaminated with it inaccessible for a longer period of time, since it caused nerve disorders, impaired vision, respiratory problems and skin burns. Tabun was lethal even at the smallest doses. Red Army gas masks were inadequate protection for either poison in the German composition. Churchill, however, made Hitler reject the suggestions. Yes, he threatened that Britain would immediately “rain” its entire poison gas stockpile of 32,000 tons of mustard and phosgene gas over Germany’s major cities as a countermeasure, totally destroying 2,500 sq. km. of German urban space. Hitler took from this that Churchill did not want to let Germany survive even within its prewar borders.”

Rochus Misch. 2014. Hitler’s Last Witness: The Memoirs of Hitler’s Bodyguard. Barnsley, U.K.: Frontline Books. p. 60.

I remember seeing a report about the development of the atom bomb. It stated that the American research was at least nine months behind the German. [...] The Western Allies had threatened that, if Germany used the atom bomb, they would assemble 15,000 aircraft in North Africa and use them to drench all of Germany with poison gas.


Vom Himmel hoch: Ein geheimer Plan enthullt, daß die Amerikaner gegen Kriegsende bereit waren, einen großen Teil der deutschen Bev¨olkerung mit Giftgas zu vernichten. [From high in the sky: A secret plan reveals that toward the end of the war the Americans were prepared to exterminate a large part of the German population with poison gas.] Der Spiegel 23 October 1988.

Only a chance find by Fritz Hahn, 66, a private researcher and specialist author from Wurttemberg, in a Washington archive reveals the drama of a plan that the U.S. war leadership wanted to implement immediately after the “first use of gas by the Axis powers” (“G-Day”). According to this plan, from Italy and England, thousands of planes were to “in a 15-day operation”:

– Fog 30 major German cities with mustard gas and/or the even more poisonous phosgene.

– Bomb all major industrial and manufacturing plants, ending World War II in Europe in one fell swoop.

Under point 4 of the plan (“Possible Results of the Attack”), U.S. specialists in the Chemical Warfare Division calculated how many people would be “directly affected,” i.e., killed—“5,600,000.” Another twelve million “would be indirectly exposed” to the proposed attack. [...]

For all 30 cities, selected by the U.S. Department of War and intelligence officials as “key targets,” there were precise descriptions of those neighborhoods that were “recommendable” as targets for attack—in Hamburg, for example, there were three: I. This target comprises the inner city with an area “of one square mile . . . approximately 200,000 persons (nightly population around 100,000), the business and warehouse center. Adjacent to the south the port along the Elbe, enclosed are the submarine yards.

George Rosie. UK Planned to Wipe Out Germany with Anthrax: Allies’ World War Two Shame. Sunday Herald (Glasgow) 14 October 2001, p. 2.

As the world recoils at the horrific possibility of al-Qaeda terrorists waging anthrax war against United States citizens, the Sunday Herald can reveal that Britain manufactured five million anthrax cattle cakes during the second world war and planned to drop them on Germany in 1944.

The aim of Operation Vegetarian was to wipe out the German beef and dairy herds and then see the bacterium spread to the human population. With people then having no access to antibiotics, this would have caused many thousands—perhaps even millions—of German men, women and children to suffer awful deaths.

The anthrax cakes were tested on Gruinard Island, off Wester Ross, which was finally cleared of contamination in 1990. Operation VEGETARIAN was planned for the summer of 1944 but, in the event, it was abandoned as the Allies’ Normandy invasion progressed successfully.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Aug 2023 17:14

williamjpellas wrote:
28 Aug 2023 17:02


These documents are also a clear example of how Allied countries covered up important wartime events and decisions, kept information about them classified for decades, and are known to still be keeping relevant archival documents classified and unavailable to the public and to historians..................

How lucky we are to have people (like you) who can see the Matrix. Where would we be if you did not have access to super-secret references like back issues of The Sunday Herald....................

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 28 Aug 2023 18:28

Mock much? History, actual history, does matter not rabid nationalism.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Aug 2023 18:50

ewest89 wrote:
28 Aug 2023 18:28
Mock much? History, actual history, does matter not rabid nationalism.
The 'rabid nationalism' of those who think Iron Sky is a documentary?

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 28 Aug 2023 19:07

My father was drafted into the Polish Army at the age of 17. He was captured and spent the rest of the war inside Germany as a Forced Laborer.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by David Montaigne » 16 Dec 2023 00:39

I've been lurking here for years and want to say I appreciate the knowledge and insights provided by several posters, especially williamjpellas and ewest89. There are names like Manfred von Ardenne and Todd Rider that I first learned about by reading this forum, as mainstream sources gloss over the most intriguing details... I recently put out a book titled: "Oppenheimer and Heisenberg" which is just as much about the bomb programs in Germany and the United States as it is about the physicists. I hope some of the experts here are interested enough to read the book and give me feedback - even if I'm "roasted" over the coals a bit it will refine my arguments for any related writing in the future. Thanks in advance to anyone who reads it and posts comments here, or contacts me on FB, or posts a review on Amazon.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 19 Dec 2023 06:51

David, you're most welcome. Unfortunately I am so busy with keeping the wolf away from the door these days that my reading on the subject has suffered a bit in recent months. I would be happy to have a look at your work, I just don't know when that will be. If you haven't downloaded Dr. Rider's book and other materials from his website, I urge you to do so. You can also look me up on Quora, where I have written dozens of posts that are derived largely from Rider's extraordinary archival research. Thanks for letting us know you're out there. BTW I am originally from Pennsylvania myself, in the western half of the state.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by David Montaigne » 23 Dec 2023 17:25

I have seen your posts on Quora (I'm pretty sure I quoted some) and I downloaded Todd Rider's book quite likely from your mentioning it. Maybe you'll have time to look at "Oppenheimer and Heisenberg" this winter. I look forward to your comments especially as it may alter the development of upcoming books. Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 24 Dec 2023 04:00

This subject is complex and not limited to one person in one country. The United States started the Manhattan Project to create a weapon. Robert Oppenheimer, regardless of any personal issues, had a job to do, which was spurred on by knowing the Germans were doing similar work. Heisenberg was subject to tight supervision lest he be arrested. He had the same job. But, it is here where the popular stories take hold, as opposed to doing original historical research. Both men did not work in isolation, there were other atomic scientists. The key point to remember is that in both countries, different aspects of the project were compartmentalized so that the loss of one part would not cripple the whole. So the German Atomic Program was split between the Army Weapons Office, Luftwaffe and SS. Other parts were hidden, for example, with the Kriegsmarine, and those companies involved in building certain components. For the Americans, creating a suitable fuse and detonation method created a problem that was not solved when needed.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by David Montaigne » 25 Dec 2023 17:39

ewest89, after having done a good amount of research for my book (though I'm under no illusion that I know all the details), your comment above strikes me as if you are holding back and being cautious. My book title may be misleading as it doesn't shout out the important content (much like Ken White's "World in Peril", for anyone who knows what is discussed about 100 pages into his book, the title doesn't reveal it) - Yes it's a dual biography of the lives of Oppenheimer and Heisenberg up through the end of the war, but I think the important part is the dismissal of "the Allied Legend" of what allegedly happened along with documentary evidence that disproves the postwar propaganda. If you're on this page of this forum you may already know but I tell other people - if you're interested in the amazing real story of the atomic bomb projects in Germany and the United States during WWII, this book is for you. That being said, please feel free to elaborate.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Dec 2023 20:02

I think the problem with the average person is the spread of what I call "the common stories." Certainly, some think, everything that could be said about the German Atomic Program was said not long after the war. Any documents marked Secret or Top Secret were just formalities. But, years later, after these documents were declassified, the exact opposite of the common stories has come to light. In March 1945, a letter was sent to President Roosevelt to tell him that production was not yet guaranteed. Manhattan Project supervisor, James F. Byrnes, recommended the project be halted to undergo scientific review. The Americans, it has been shown, were using an inferior separation method compared to what the Germans had.

Another point. Neither Oppenheimer or Heisenberg were in charge of anything. They were civilian scientists working for the military. Period. People have built up an image around these men. All the military cared about was results, as quickly as possible. Most of the details of what happened regarding the German Atomic Program, and delivery methods, are now known based on declassified documents. In a nutshell, in December 1944, the Americans were threatened with "intercontinental missile attack." In other words, ICBMs. Underground launch silos had been built. The man who designed them was sent to the United States shortly after the war to build the same structures for a contractor that did work for the Army Corps of Engineers. Were the warheads atomic? Yes, definitely. Another declassified document refers to "rocket propelled atomic bombs." The Americans had nothing close during the war.

I recommend the book Critical Mass by Carter P. Hydrick. It reproduces original Manhattan Project documents that show the Americans would be unable to produce enough fissile material to drop two different types of atomic bombs on Japan.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Dec 2023 23:23

ewest89 wrote:
25 Dec 2023 20:02
I think the problem with the average person is the spread of what I call "the common stories." Certainly, some think, everything that could be said about the German Atomic Program was said not long after the war. Any documents marked Secret or Top Secret were just formalities. But, years later, after these documents were declassified, the exact opposite of the common stories has come to light. In March 1945, a letter was sent to President Roosevelt to tell him that production was not yet guaranteed. Manhattan Project supervisor, James F. Byrnes, recommended the project be halted to undergo scientific review. The Americans, it has been shown, were using an inferior separation method compared to what the Germans had.

Another point. Neither Oppenheimer or Heisenberg were in charge of anything. They were civilian scientists working for the military. Period. People have built up an image around these men. All the military cared about was results, as quickly as possible. Most of the details of what happened regarding the German Atomic Program, and delivery methods, are now known based on declassified documents. In a nutshell, in December 1944, the Americans were threatened with "intercontinental missile attack." In other words, ICBMs. Underground launch silos had been built. The man who designed them was sent to the United States shortly after the war to build the same structures for a contractor that did work for the Army Corps of Engineers. Were the warheads atomic? Yes, definitely. Another declassified document refers to "rocket propelled atomic bombs." The Americans had nothing close during the war.

I recommend the book Critical Mass by Carter P. Hydrick. It reproduces original Manhattan Project documents that show the Americans would be unable to produce enough fissile material to drop two different types of atomic bombs on Japan.
You know, we've been over this ground on this board (and others) several times now. None of what you stated above can be corroborated in the least. Instead, it's all speculation, conspiracy theory, and cherry picked details to support those.

For example, ICBM's and silos... Where are the silos? Note the plural on that. You stated "silos." Why are there no existing plans or drawings of the design used? There's a whole section on this board dedicated to fortifications and bunkers that the Germans built and designed during WW 2. There are a number of absolutely expert researchers that post on this board on that subject.
An ICBM silo is no small thing, and no small project. Other than saying they were built, do you have even the barest evidence of the existence of even one of these? They wouldn't be something that could be easily erased from physical existence.

As for ICBM's themselves, we've been over that too. There is absolutely no way Germany could have produced one that worked during the war. Even just production of a prototype would have been virtually impossible for them to manage. If you look at a V-2, the CEP is measured in miles. For an ICBM of similar accuracy, the CEP would be tens, probably hundreds, of miles.

I have Hydrick's book and have previously commented on it here. Maybe you should go back and read those comments.

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