Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

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Yuri
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 09 Jul 2020 12:20

hi, Urmel!
Sorry, I forgot to thank you for the table. Thanks! (better late than never).

Analysis of the columns "West" and "homeland" in this table gives the following results.
(I.) The "Heimat" Column.
a) the line "Geb.Div." indicates 3.Geb.Div. This division followed from Finland through Sweden-Denmark to Leningrad. Therefore from one section of the Soviet-European front to another. A short stop in Germany was necessary to replenish and receive weapons as they left Finland without weapons.
Now about another mountain division from the column "Heimat". With a probability close to 100%, this is the 5.Geb.Div., which was transferred from Greece (Crete) to Leningrad.

b) the line "Panzer divisions" undoubtedly refers to the 24.Pz.Div. This division was created from the 1st Cavalry Division, which until November 1941 operated in Army Group "Center". The HQ and remaining personnel of the 1st Cavalry Division were moved to WK.1, that is, to East Prussia. At the same time, some of the units were located on the territory of the district "Bialystok", that is, on the territory of the Belarusian SSR, which was annexed to the territory of East Prussia on September 1, 1941. Already in May 1942, the 24.Pz.Div arrived in Kursk as part of the 4th Panzer Army. In July 1942, this division participated in the battle for state farm No.79. The battles for this well-known state farm took place both in summer and winter 1942, so there are burial places for the dead soldiers and officers of both the 11th Panzer division (General Balk) and former cavalrymen of the 1st Cavalry Division who were re-qualified as tankers of the 24th Panzer Division.

(II.) Column "West".
a) In the line "Panzer divisions" - 2 divisions. This is without doubt the 22nd and 23rd Panzer divisions. Both of these divisions began forming in November 1941.
Already in early February 1942, the 22.Pz.Div. left for the Soviet-European front in Crimea. There were many poles in this division. As soon as the 22nd Panzer division arrived in Crimea in early March 1942, a large group of poles defected to the Red Army.
Here is page of the transcript of the interrogation of the defector - a soldier of the 5th company of Pz.Gr.Regt.129/22.Pz.Div., pole Wolf Lebes.
22PzD_PzGrReg129_5Komp_Wolf-Lebes(3).jpg
Defector drew and explained the principle of operation of the new weapons that were available in 22.Pz.Div.

Now about the 23.Pz.Div.
The 23rd ("Paris") Panzer Division received French tanks for the period of training. In early March 1942, she left for the Soviet-European front near Kharkov. The 23rd Panzer division left Paris without any French tanks. German tanks received in Kharkov in the period from March to May 1942.
A large group of German soldiers and unter-officers from a tank regiment and a motorcycle battalion of 23.Pz.Div. (more than 60 men in total) were captured at Kharkov. They described in detail the process of forming this division. Many years ago, on this forum (AHF) or on the Feldgrau forum, I gave the final information about 23.Pz.Div., compiled from the testimony of these PoWs.

Let's sum up the analysis of the table "Zahlenmäßige Übersicht über die Verteilung det Divn." (Voraussichtlich Stand: 1.2.1942).

a) In the column "Heimat": two divisions in the line "Geb.Div" this is the transit of the 3.Geb.Div from one section of the Soviet-Europea front to another and the transit 5.Geb.Div. from "Südosten" to the Soviet-European front.
One panzer division is the formation of 24.Pz.Div. in East Prussia, and partly in the occupied territory of the Belorussian SSR.
Thus, out of the nine divisions listed in the "Heimat" column, only one division, namely 416.ID (located in Denmark), can be considered as located in the "Heimat". The other eight are not "Heimat"at all, they are pure "Osten" or for "Osten".
Refer them to the Heimat - manipulation of numbers, not a conscientious study.

b) Column "Westen": two divisions in the line "Pz.Divs" this is the formation of the 22nd and 23rd Panzer divisions, which in February and March 1942 were transferred to "Osten" (respectively in the Crimea and near Kharkov) before the training and arming of these divisions was completed.

c) I leave aside the fact that a part from 24 infantry divisions (for example, my "ward" 336.ID) was moved to "Osten".

These are the facts, and the final conclusions are made by everyone for themselves - to the extent of their depravity.
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 09 Jul 2020 13:18

Wolf Lebes
Typical 'polish' name.... :thumbsup:

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 09 Jul 2020 13:38

Thank you Yuri. That's what I suspected, i.e. that most units in the West at this time would be there to prepare to move from the East.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 09 Jul 2020 15:51

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
09 Jul 2020 13:18
Wolf Lebes
Typical 'polish' name.... :thumbsup:

Jan-Hendrik
Life is full of quirks.
For example.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D0 ... 0%B8%D1%87

Vladimir Wolfovich Zhirinovsky is the head of the liberal democratic party faction in the State Duma of the Russian Federation.
Parents:
mother - Alexandra Pavlovna,
father - Wolf Eidelstein.
Wolf Eidelstein - Zhirinovsky's father - lived in the territory of Western Ukraine, which was until September 17, 1939 in Poland.
Wolf Zhirinovsky owned a factory, that is, he was a "capitalist" and so he was deported to Kazakhstan, as a result, he remained alive and had children, one of whom is now branding "the tyrant Stalin" for deportation.
By the way, the Wolf Zhirinovsky's factory was robbed by the Italians in 1941 - all the equipment was taken to Italy.
The territory where Wolf Zhirinovsky lived was included in the Great German Reich. If Wolf Zhirinovsky had not been deported, he would probably have been drafted into the German Wehrmacht and Adolf Hitler had another soldier with a typically Polish name - Wolf.
Wolf is a typical Jewish name among the Slavs.
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 09 Jul 2020 15:59

Jewisch is not slav....

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by AbollonPolweder » 09 Jul 2020 16:04

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
05 Jul 2020 18:37
...
My own thought experiment:

Two small countries, X and Y, go to war. X and Y are nearly evenly matched but X has the U.S. as an ally. For five years X and Y slaughter each other while the U.S. mostly watches - say the Americans fly 1 bombing sortie against Y over five years. After five years, however, the U.S. uses a small portion of its resources to amplify X's efforts by 10%, putting X over the hump against Y.

Who did most of the fighting? Clearly X.

How was the war won? Almost entirely by X, with a small assist from the U.S.

Under my conception of "how the war was won" it doesn't really matter if X would have lost to Y absent the small assist from the U.S. (say X is 1% less powerful than Y and therefore needed American help to prevail).

This is how I see WW2: Germany would have beaten the SU one-on-one. The SU needed the Wallies help to win but the Red Army did most of the fighting. Under any fair, normative concept of "how the war was won," it was won by the Red Army and enormous Soviet sacrifices and heroism.
...
It seems to me that you are talking too abstractly about the balance of power between Russia and Germany. Agree that we know something about the process of struggle between them. Germany sent Russia to a deep knockdown in the first «round». How did Russia manage to hold out and defeat such a strong rival after that? And to win not just by points, but by a real knockout? Agree to knock out, you must not be 1% stronger, but all 30% or 50%. This means that Russia was helped to increase its strength not by 10%, but by 100%. How do you like this scenario?
What about heroism? Аre you saying that O'Brien should have converted Russian heroism into dollars and added to the Soviet «straw bale»? But in this case, it is necessary to convert into dollars and the heroism of the Americans and the British. Right? :milwink:
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 09 Jul 2020 16:22

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
09 Jul 2020 15:59
Jewisch is not slav....

Jan-Hendrik
Thanks!
I have lived for many years, but I didn't know it until this moment.

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 09 Jul 2020 19:41

AbollonPolweder wrote:to knock out, you must not be 1% stronger, but all 30% or 50%.
Only by the rules of a modern boxing commission. In war, as when men were men, there's no judge's decision:
The fight began at 10:30, and at first it looked like Sullivan was going to lose, especially after he vomited during the 44th round. However, the champion got his second wind and was able to turn things around for himself. After a grueling beatdown, Kilrain's manager finally threw in the towel after the 75th round.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Sullivan
But in this case, it is necessary to convert into dollars and the heroism of the Americans and the British
If we value individual heroism equally, I'd say we have at least 30mil Soviet heroes and ~2mil American (mostly those who fought in Europe and flew the bombers). 30mil > 2mil so the dollar equation would come out Red.
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by AbollonPolweder » 10 Jul 2020 10:20

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
09 Jul 2020 19:41
...
Only by the rules of a modern boxing commission. In war, as when men were men, there's no judge's decision:
Actually there are judges in the war for there are military courts or tribunals. But the referee in the war really is not. So we, who were not in the war, have to make judgments about it. Your judgments about the balance of power are clearly not relevant to that war.
The fight began at 10:30, and at first it looked like Sullivan was going to lose, especially after he vomited during the 44th round. However, the champion got his second wind and was able to turn things around for himself. After a grueling beatdown, Kilrain's manager finally threw in the towel after the 75th round.
That is, despite the fact that in the 41th year (round), the Soviet Sullivan almost lost, in the 45th :o round (year) he beat German Kilrain without the help of the Americans and the British? As a Russian I should thank you for such posts, because they inspire me to be proud of our “sullivans”. True, when after your posts I am reading real documents about that war , the suspicion that you are joking begins to torment me.
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Max Payload » 10 Jul 2020 14:26

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
07 Jul 2020 17:26
Third, mortar fire is more efficient per weight of shot than field artillery. All HE shells seeks to maximize explosive filling versus sidewalls; mortar shells face lower stress upon firing and can therefore have a higher proportion of explosive vs. steel. This is, again, a poor country's strategy: mortars have far less range and therefore it takes many more men and barrels to cover a frontline with mortar fire than with field artillery. But if you're manpower-rich and capital-poor, you lean heavily on cheaper mortar shells and barrels.

So it makes sense for Russia to spend relatively less on shells, more on barrels (always a small part of artillery costs though), and expend more artilleryman's lives by placing them closer to the front.
Interesting theory. That being the case, it would be expected that a 1940 German infantry division (being much further along the curve than it’s Soviet equivalent on your combat power (per soldier) vs. material intensity graph
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=250357#p2278591) would have far fewer mortars in its TO&E than a pre-war Soviet rifle division.
In fact they were virtually the same - 142 mortars (predominantly 5cm) compared to 150 (again predominantly 50mm).
By 1944 a gap had opened up in the TO&E mortar numbers as the light mortars were abandoned and divisional sizes decreased, but the difference even then was hardly evidentially significant - 76 in a German infantry division compared to 127 in a Soviet division - at a time when, arguably, the ‘material intensity’ gap between the two sides had narrowed considerably.

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 10 Jul 2020 15:13

I think the big difference is in the actual artillery. 105mm and 150mm on the German side vs. 76mm and 122mm on Soviet, or 75mm and 100mm on the Italian side. The weight of a volley of the divisional artillery is quite different, and the lethality too.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 11 Jul 2020 14:08

AbollonPolweder wrote:
10 Jul 2020 10:20
That is, despite the fact that in the 41th year (round), the Soviet Sullivan almost lost,...
First, let me remind a well-known saying: "Almost" - in Russian does not count.
Second, and this is the main thing. If, according to your calculation of rounds, the first round ended at the end of 1941, then You apparently didn't fully watch the first round until the end.
At the end of the first round, that is, December 1941, the Wehrmacht was in a deep knockdown. You can find out about it from Brauchitsch, von Rundschtet, von Leeb, von Bock, Guderian and other beaten high military leaders of the Wehrmacht.
Your remark about the Red Army's knockdown at the end of the first round (at the end of 1941) is identical to Halder's "obituary" of the Red Army's demise on July 3, 1941.

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 11 Jul 2020 14:10

Max Payload wrote:In fact they were virtually the same - 142 mortars (predominantly 5cm) compared to 150 (again predominantly 50mm).


See upthread re conceptual clarity and relevance.

You're responding to analysis of artillery shells with a point about artillery tubes.

I could say more but the point is so far afield and clarity and relevance, and so confident in its errantness, that no further effort is justified.
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 12 Jul 2020 11:51

stg 44 wrote:
07 Jul 2020 14:14
Plus again that leaves out the navy and Luftwaffe/air defense.

The latter is particularly important as of 4th quarter 1941 it was already consuming 24% of the entire Wehrmacht weapons budget and 35% of total ammo production per the book "Flak: 1914-1945". Even in 3rd quarter 1941, i.e. in the first 3 months of Barbarossa, it was 19% and 34% respectively.
And that was just FLAK.
Reading books about the Luftwaffe anti-aircraft artillery (FLAK) of the Wehrmacht is useful.
You can learn a lot of interesting things. I read such books, too. Here, for example, is a scan of the cover of a book about FLAK from my library.
GBF_Title_сut.jpg
However, if you limit yourself only to reading such books and do not study documents, you can with a high probability get an erroneous idea of what this animal is - FLAK - and what it is eaten with.
So first a few documents about the Luftwaffe in General and about the FLAK in particular.
let's start with the General.
42-01-29 Diary of a Lw_Officer_.jpg
==========================================================
Excerpts from the diary of a German officer.
Lieutenant Gerngard Ebbing, company commander Inf. Reg. 412 227.ID / Ebbing's diary, soldier's book and letters were found near his body in the area of Rabochy poselok No. 8 (Work settlement No. 8 - Yuri).

Ebbing in the rank of Feldwebel in mid-1941 sent to the school of officers of the German air force in Gatow near Berlin, after graduating from school, in January 1942, as an officer candidate, sent to a three-month course in rifle training in Grossborn /Pomerania/.

29.1.42. Extract from the diary. "One thing is already clear, they want to turn us into foot soldiers within three months. This is the end of the good times in the air force. Housing is not what we are used to seeing in flight units. We are 15 people in one room, and we are struggling to get through. But there are 2,000 more officers and officer candidates in this position. And the fact that I am not the only one who is not lucky is a consolation."
3.2.42 . "On Sunday, we were addressed by Colonel Geiderich of the 3rd airborne regiment, who is also the head of our courses. We will be trained as platoon and company commanders in order to be sent to the Eastern front after completing our three-month training courses. Reichsmarschall Goering put us at the disposal of the Fuhrer for the next offensive. Now the hour of trial is approaching for us too. But before that time, we have a lot of things to learn. But it will work.
We have already reorganized, removed the blue uniform of the air force and put on the gray uniform of the infantry, only we still wear the badge of pilots on our chest.
The service is not easy. Fortunately, the cold is already giving up. We study the carbine of the 1898 model, the 08 pistol, the 1940 submachine gun. A lot of activities on the ground, which I previously had no idea about. I hope that we will learn a lot here to stand up for ourselves in the upcoming battles."

13.3.42. ".... Today is the first inspection of the commander of the 10th flying division, major General Peterson.
We are very much in the courtyard. The power supply does not match the current load. In all my time at school, I was never really fed. If only the food had improved?"
29.3.42. "The food has improved noticeably. Last week came General aviation Student along with chief of staff Stomach."
20.4.42. "The Führer's birthday! A day of serious joy. I was promoted to Lieutenant. My long-term wish was fulfilled. To be a Lieutenant is to be an example in life and in death. Thank you, Lord God. You've always favored me so much. Don't leave me in the future."
21.4.42. "Speech of ReichsMarshal Goering at the graduation of courses: "For 3 months, you were gathered here for courses in order to prepare you, officers and candidates for officers, for combat. What was possible to achieve in 3 months is achieved.
This was at the climax of the battle, when the Führer asked me to allocate from my air force two thousand more young men, called as officers and young leaders to take part in various bridgeheads of future battles. With this I was instructed, as far as possible, to help the fraternal type of weapons - the infantry, young officers of the air fleet, to fill in the heavy losses that the winter brought us. In addition, the air force has created combat regiments from its own ranks, which also require the presence of young officers. All those selected for this purpose are collected in these courses. Each of you individually will be put in your place, and he, as a young officer and as a young chief, must do his duty, mostly as a young chief, for this is what we are called to do and what you have been taught to do. Each of you will lead German men in the future. What does it mean? What is the first duty of management?
It is the first duty, everywhere and always, as a leader, to be an example to those whom you lead, in order to reach their blind trust, wherever it leads them.
It was a difficult decision for me to select hundreds of young officers from my air force. But everywhere we must take into account the common great interests. You can't think in small terms. We must understand that today, at the time of the greatest battle that our country is waging, everyone must do their duty wherever the Fuhrer's orders put them. And it is to those who are now leaving for the land army that I appeal. You go as a representative of the air force. So you will be considered. And you should always and everywhere carry with you the feeling that in a new place you need to show your spirit, the spirit of aviation. You should stand out especially. It's hard for you, of course. But I am sure that you will soon grow into a new environment. You are our messengers in the land army, and therefore I ask you to show that the people of aviation everywhere can fight and lead.
.... /cut - Yuri/
The enemy is hard and ruthless, but it will be defeated as it has been hitherto. In a few more weeks, his only ally at home – the cold, the swamps, the snow and ice – would be gone. Then the German soldier will show the world that only the weather prevented him from rushing forward, that we are now paying off and that the enemy will learn that the new addition is worthy of the old fighters and that above all-courage.
.../cut - Yuri/
Be and remain national socialists and brave soldiers. That you will be, we swear! Glory to victory!".
18.9.42. "My hour of departure for the 227th division has come."
20.9.42. "I found out where the 227th division is located. It is located in Pukhalovo, South of Mga."
11.1.43. "That was a day. Throughout the morning until dinner, the enemy did not leave us alone. At 06: 30, the mortar attack began. About 500 ruptures lay down near our strong point. At 11: 30, after heavy gunfire, a reconnaissance group appeared. We recaptured it, but it only started after that. For 2 hours we were bombarded by 122 and 152 mm guns. There are no losses yet." The diary ends here.
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Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 12 Jul 2020 15:38

From the diary of a German officer who was killed in the area of Work settlement No. 8, we learn a lot of interesting things about the Luftwaffe personnel, who are located at Home and in the West.
These Luftwaffe personnel are trained for ground combat operations on the Eastern front, training takes place in Luftwaffe schools, the teacher is also from Luftwaffe personnel. Young and healthy guys change the beautiful blue Luftwaffe uniform for a modest, gray infantry uniform and go to the Eastern front, where they quickly find their death in the infantry divisions of the land forces of the Wehrmacht.
The owner of the diary recorded a speech by Reichsmarschall Goering, from which we learn that the Luftwaffe not only transfers its personnel to the infantry divisions of the land forces, but creates its combat regiments for operations on land. Where are the Luftwaffe combat regiments fighting? everywhere, for example, one of these regiments is attacking Stalingrad.
9u15_FlakDiv_LwReg_42-09-04_Karte_mod.jpg
And General Peterson's division arrived in near Rzhew (Moscow).
42-10-26 7FlDiv_Starke_.jpg
Telegram
from: the command of Army Group Center
to: Group Schevalleri.
26.10.1942
13:00
Printed in 1 copy.
Contents: 7 air division (General Petersen)
1.) Strength:
511 officers
112 employees
3902 unter-officers
15869 men
Total number: 20394
2.) Proposed organization
3 regiments
2 Artillery Abteilung
1 Air force communications battalion
1 Antitank Abteilung
1 Machine Gun battalion
1 Sanitary battalion.
The headquarters of the Army Group Center
Operations division
#8299/42 Top secret.
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