German troop strength by month by theatre

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Senex
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German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 26 Jul 2020 19:38

Hi. Having a friendly debate with a colleague.
Looking for a source for a snapshot of German troop strength by month by theater (i.e. east (USSR/Poland/Romania, etc.), west (France/BENELUX/W. Germany), south (Italy), far north (Norway), particularly for 1944.
I read German, Russian, and French fairly well, so a German, Russian or French source would be excellent, but an English language source would be best if objective and accurate. On-line sources preferred.

Also useful would be number of divisions (realizing all the methodological problems with that), number of armored vehicles, and combat aircraft, but I am particularly interested in troop numbers.

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 27 Jul 2020 17:52

Darn near 500 views and no responses yet. Surprising.
I was looking for something like Appendix E (p. 542) of Pogue's The Supreme Command (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... =en&gbpv=0), which lists the troops strength in the European Theater of Operations by month and even breaks the data down by ground, air and "service" and those stationed in Britain and those on the continent.

Is there no similar source for the Wehrmacht?

Mori
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Mori » 27 Jul 2020 19:07

One suggestion: check the detailed descriptions of the rolls, esp. series T77 and T78: http://www.digitalhistoryarchive.com/st ... ducts.html

Then look for said rolls by asking around.

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 27 Jul 2020 19:14

That is useful. Thank you.

Art
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Art » 28 Jul 2020 06:13

This page and further:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
Numbers stand for German personnel of ground forces only. Also not shown are:
20 Mountain Army in Lapland (about 170 000-200 000 men)
military commands Ostland and Ukraine (about 100 000 men combined until the spring of 1944)
Army Norway and military command Denmark - about 200 000 men combined

For breakdown of divisions by front see:
https://www.axishistory.com/books/134-c ... rld-war-ii

Art
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Art » 28 Jul 2020 06:25

Ground forces personnel breakdown on 1.6.44:
1.jpg
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Boby
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Boby » 28 Jul 2020 10:16

The last is from Org.Abt. files? NARA roll number please?

Art
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Art » 28 Jul 2020 12:42

T78 R414 frame 6383152

Boby
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Boby » 28 Jul 2020 13:00

Thanks Art!

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 28 Jul 2020 22:12

I'm focused primarily on the first of November 1944 (my discussion is the period around about Hürtgen).
What I have found is this so far.

Allies:
Canadian strength NW Europe (but not RCAF in Britain): 124,645*
British strength NW Europe(but not RAF in Britain): 771,267*
American strength NW Europe/Britain: 2,588,983*
Mediterranean Theatre/Italy: 500,000? #

German NW Europe: ??
German Italy: 400,000?
German East Front: 2,110,000**

Red Army: 6,810,000**


* Source: Pogue, The Supreme Command, Appendix E, pg. 542-543.
** Source: Reina Pennington, citing Glantz & House, When Titans Clashed. Not sure if Glantz and House included the far north in these data. Glantz & House data are for 1 OCT 44, but that is close enough.
# The closest I could find was that 5th Army 15 DEC 44 has 331,483 US and British soldiers. It probably had something similar in November, but that does not include British 8th Army figures.

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Appleknocker27
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Appleknocker27 » 01 Aug 2020 15:58

Senex wrote:
28 Jul 2020 22:12
I'm focused primarily on the first of November 1944 (my discussion is the period around about Hürtgen).
What I have found is this so far.

Allies:
Canadian strength NW Europe (but not RCAF in Britain): 124,645*
British strength NW Europe(but not RAF in Britain): 771,267*
American strength NW Europe/Britain: 2,588,983*
Mediterranean Theatre/Italy: 500,000? #
I believe the French in NW Europe had at least twice the strength of the Canadians by Nov of 1944, with over 100k more (at least) in Italy, then more still in North Africa (reserves).

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 01 Aug 2020 17:48

Thanks. I recently read that the French had fielded 230,000 soldiers by that time. I'll have to go back and find the source.
This number included French colonial troops (mostly Senegalese and North African) and a considerable number of metropolitan Frenchmen, presumably FFI repurposed to conventional fighting.

Richard Anderson
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Richard Anderson » 01 Aug 2020 18:10

Boby wrote:
28 Jul 2020 10:16
The last is from Org.Abt. files? NARA roll number please?
Be very careful of those figures. They are for the Feldheer only and are estimated - incorrectly - in a number of places, especially with HG-D. The actual strength of Ob.West (HG-D_ on 1 June 1944 likely totaled 1,440,483 to 1,594,483, not the 823,000 implied by the table. Viz.:

Heer ~ 728,000
SS ~ 75,563
Luftwaffe Fallschirm-Armee ~ 39,476
Luftwaffe Flak-Einheiten, excluding III Flak-Korps (c. 13,000) and RAD-manned battalions (included below) ~ 90,444
Luftwaffe Flieger-Einheiten ~ 120,000
Luftwaffe Boden-Einheiten ~ 150,000-160,000
Kriegesmarine ~ 100,000
OT/RAD/NSKK ~ 70-90,000
HiWi and Ostruppen ~ 67,000

That total also likely excludes some Reserve units of the Ersatzheer based in the west as well as the personnel of the Militärbefehlshaber in Belgian und Nordfrankreich and Militärbefehlshaber Frankreich.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 02 Aug 2020 00:17

Richard Anderson wrote:
01 Aug 2020 18:10
Boby wrote:
28 Jul 2020 10:16
The last is from Org.Abt. files? NARA roll number please?
Be very careful of those figures. They are for the Feldheer only and are estimated - incorrectly - in a number of places, especially with HG-D. The actual strength of Ob.West (HG-D_ on 1 June 1944 likely totaled 1,440,483 to 1,594,483, not the 823,000 implied by the table. Viz.:

Heer ~ 728,000
SS ~ 75,563
Luftwaffe Fallschirm-Armee ~ 39,476
Luftwaffe Flak-Einheiten, excluding III Flak-Korps (c. 13,000) and RAD-manned battalions (included below) ~ 90,444
Luftwaffe Flieger-Einheiten ~ 120,000
Luftwaffe Boden-Einheiten ~ 150,000-160,000
Kriegesmarine ~ 100,000
OT/RAD/NSKK ~ 70-90,000
HiWi and Ostruppen ~ 67,000

That total also likely excludes some Reserve units of the Ersatzheer based in the west as well as the personnel of the Militärbefehlshaber in Belgian und Nordfrankreich and Militärbefehlshaber Frankreich.
Sources please.
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 02 Aug 2020 03:04

Richard Anderson wrote:
01 Aug 2020 18:10
Boby wrote:
28 Jul 2020 10:16
The last is from Org.Abt. files? NARA roll number please?
Be very careful of those figures. They are for the Feldheer only and are estimated - incorrectly - in a number of places, especially with HG-D. The actual strength of Ob.West (HG-D_ on 1 June 1944 likely totaled 1,440,483 to 1,594,483, not the 823,000 implied by the table. Viz.:

Heer ~ 728,000
SS ~ 75,563
Luftwaffe Fallschirm-Armee ~ 39,476
Luftwaffe Flak-Einheiten, excluding III Flak-Korps (c. 13,000) and RAD-manned battalions (included below) ~ 90,444
Luftwaffe Flieger-Einheiten ~ 120,000
Luftwaffe Boden-Einheiten ~ 150,000-160,000
Kriegesmarine ~ 100,000
OT/RAD/NSKK ~ 70-90,000
HiWi and Ostruppen ~ 67,000

That total also likely excludes some Reserve units of the Ersatzheer based in the west as well as the personnel of the Militärbefehlshaber in Belgian und Nordfrankreich and Militärbefehlshaber Frankreich.
Excellent info.
Would you happen to have access to similar data for 1 November 1944 (or closest to that date)?

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