It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

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nota
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by nota » 15 Feb 2021 05:03

if and only if the axis was a real united force with a common goal of one country at a time in the war

and I grant the axis was far more of an idea then an alliance with a few common enemies and no agreed goals at all

that said adding japan's fleet could have made it a maybe we can from a no chance invasion in 1940 real difference

granted japan would not risk their fleet but I see it plus italy and every other ship the germans can grab being needed
plus luck and the only war winning plan never even thought of
a 6 carrier pearl harbor strike on scapa flow to open and reduce the odds

air did not have the lift to do it boats are the only way and germans need the warshiping japan has

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AnchorSteam
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by AnchorSteam » 26 Feb 2021 21:50

A few formations that might have slipped past your notice -
• 1st Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 16 December 1935 from HQ 47th (1/2nd London) Division to command Territorial Army AA units in London and South East England. Headquartered at RAF Uxbridge. Later concentrated on the London Inner Artillery Zone after 6th AA Division was formed. Heavily engaged during The Blitz. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 1 AA Group.
• 2nd Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 15 December 1935 from HQ 46th (North Midland) Division to command all TA AA units outside London and South East England. Headquartered at RAF Hucknall. Later its remit was restricted to Yorkshire and the North Midlands. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 5 AA Group.
• 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 1 September 1938 to command TA AA units in Scottish Command and the North East of England. Headquartered in Edinburgh. 7th AA Division took over responsibility for North East England in 1939. Later, 12th AA Division was split off to cover West of Scotland and Northern Ireland, and OSDEF (Orkney & Shetland Defences) covered the Scapa Flow naval base. 3rd AA Division was disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 6 AA Group.
• 4th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 1 September 1938 to command TA AA units in Western Command, covering North West England, the West Midlands and Wales. Headquartered in Chester. In 1940 it was split, with 11th AA Division taking over coverage of the West Midlands and South Wales. 4th AA Division was disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 4 AA Group.
• 5th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 1 September 1938 to command all TA AA units in the South, South West and South Midlands of England and South Wales. Headquartered in Reading. Later its remit was restricted to Southern England. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was split between 2 AA Group and 3 AA Group.
• 6th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed in 1939 to take responsibility for the air defence of the Thames Estuary, Essex and North Kent. Headquartered at Uxbridge, later Chelmsford. Heavily engaged during the Battle of Britain and the Blitz. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 2 AA Group.
• 7th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed in June 1939 to take responsibility for the air defence of North East England. Headquartered in Newcastle upon Tyne. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 5 and 6 AA Groups.


• 2nd Armoured Division[19]
The division was formed on 15 December 1939, in the United Kingdom. In October 1940, the division was dispatched to Egypt and arrived in January 1941.[19] The division was used to reinforce the 7th Armoured Division, while elements were shipped to Greece. This left an under strength, inexperienced, and ill-equipped division, which was overrun during Rommel's first offensive.[20] The divisional headquarters was captured on 8 April, and on 10 May 1941 the division was formally disbanded.[19]
• 6th Armoured Division[21]
The division was formed on 12 September 1940, in the United Kingdom.[21] The division first saw service in North Africa from November 1942[22] – where "it was among the first to reach Tunisia as part of First Army[23] – till March 1944, when it was then deployed to Italy. The division fought at Bou Arada, Fondouk, El Kourzia, Tunis, the Liri Valley, Arezzo, Florence, along the Gothic Line, and in the Argenta Gap.[21] Ended war under command of V Corps.[22]


• 1st London Division[63]
1st Line Territorial Army (Motor) division at the start of the war, with headquarters in Finsbury Barracks. 18 November 1940 redesignated 56th (London) Division.

• 2nd London Division[65]
2nd Line Territorial Army (Motor) division at the start of the war, with headquarters in the London District. On 21 November 1940, the division was renamed as the 47th (London) Infantry Division. Remained in the United Kingdom until 1 September 1944, when redesignated the 47th Infantry (Reserve) Division.

• 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division[84]
2nd Line Territorial Division. Formed September 1939 in the United Kingdom. Served in northwestern Europe from 14 June 1944 until the end of the war. Fought on the Odon River, at Caen, Mont Pincon, the Nederrijn, the Rhineland, and across the Rhine. Ended the campaign in northwestern Europe under command of VIII Corps.
• 18th Infantry Division[85]
2nd Line Territorial Division. Formed 30 September 1939 in the United Kingdom. Served in India January 1942 and in Malaya February 1942. 15 February 1942 captured by the Imperial Japanese Army in Malaya. Fought on Singapore Island.


• 38th (Welsh) Infantry Division[88]
2nd Line Territorial Army division, a duplicate of the 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division. The division became active on 18 September 1939.[89][90] The division spent the war within the United Kingdom on home defense duties, being downgraded to the Lower Establishment on 1 December 1941. On 15 August 1944, the division was disbanded.[91] On 1 September 1944, the division was reformed as the 38th Infantry (Reserve) Division, a training formation, which replaced the 80th Infantry (Reserve) Division (that had been disbanded) as Western Command's training formation until the end of the war when it was again disbanded.

• 45th Infantry Division[97]
2nd Line Territorial Division, formed September 1939 in the United Kingdom. August 1944 division dispersed. 1 September 1944 Redesignated 45th (Holding) Division. 1 December 1944 redesignated 45th Division. Under War Office Control at the end of the war.

• 54th (East Anglian) Infantry Division[105]
1st Line Territorial Army division at the start of the war, with headquarters in The Barracks, Hertford. 14 December 1943 disbanded in the United Kingdom.
• 55th (West Lancashire) Infantry Division[106]
1st Line Territorial Army (Motor) division at the start of the war, with headquarters in Liverpool. Never left the United Kingdom. Ended the war under command of Western Command.
• 59th (Staffordshire) Infantry Division[108]
2nd Line Territorial Army (Motor) division formed 4 September 1939 in the United Kingdom. Fought at Caen and Mount Pincon. Served in northwestern Europe from June 1944 until October 1944. 19 October 1944 disbanded in northwestern Europe.
I know that not all of them were at full trength or anything near that in the Summer of 1940, but none of the above had been deployed to France in 1940.

It seems a bit much for 5 Paratroops Divisions to handle.

historygeek2021
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by historygeek2021 » 27 Feb 2021 01:08

AnchorSteam wrote:
26 Feb 2021 21:50
A few formations that might have slipped past your notice -
• 1st Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 16 December 1935 from HQ 47th (1/2nd London) Division to command Territorial Army AA units in London and South East England. Headquartered at RAF Uxbridge. Later concentrated on the London Inner Artillery Zone after 6th AA Division was formed. Heavily engaged during The Blitz. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 1 AA Group.
• 2nd Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 15 December 1935 from HQ 46th (North Midland) Division to command all TA AA units outside London and South East England. Headquartered at RAF Hucknall. Later its remit was restricted to Yorkshire and the North Midlands. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 5 AA Group.
• 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 1 September 1938 to command TA AA units in Scottish Command and the North East of England. Headquartered in Edinburgh. 7th AA Division took over responsibility for North East England in 1939. Later, 12th AA Division was split off to cover West of Scotland and Northern Ireland, and OSDEF (Orkney & Shetland Defences) covered the Scapa Flow naval base. 3rd AA Division was disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 6 AA Group.
• 4th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 1 September 1938 to command TA AA units in Western Command, covering North West England, the West Midlands and Wales. Headquartered in Chester. In 1940 it was split, with 11th AA Division taking over coverage of the West Midlands and South Wales. 4th AA Division was disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 4 AA Group.
• 5th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed on 1 September 1938 to command all TA AA units in the South, South West and South Midlands of England and South Wales. Headquartered in Reading. Later its remit was restricted to Southern England. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was split between 2 AA Group and 3 AA Group.
• 6th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed in 1939 to take responsibility for the air defence of the Thames Estuary, Essex and North Kent. Headquartered at Uxbridge, later Chelmsford. Heavily engaged during the Battle of Britain and the Blitz. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 2 AA Group.
• 7th Anti-Aircraft Division
The division was formed in June 1939 to take responsibility for the air defence of North East England. Headquartered in Newcastle upon Tyne. Disbanded in October 1942, when its role was subsumed into 5 and 6 AA Groups.


• 2nd Armoured Division[19]
The division was formed on 15 December 1939, in the United Kingdom. In October 1940, the division was dispatched to Egypt and arrived in January 1941.[19] The division was used to reinforce the 7th Armoured Division, while elements were shipped to Greece. This left an under strength, inexperienced, and ill-equipped division, which was overrun during Rommel's first offensive.[20] The divisional headquarters was captured on 8 April, and on 10 May 1941 the division was formally disbanded.[19]
• 6th Armoured Division[21]
The division was formed on 12 September 1940, in the United Kingdom.[21] The division first saw service in North Africa from November 1942[22] – where "it was among the first to reach Tunisia as part of First Army[23] – till March 1944, when it was then deployed to Italy. The division fought at Bou Arada, Fondouk, El Kourzia, Tunis, the Liri Valley, Arezzo, Florence, along the Gothic Line, and in the Argenta Gap.[21] Ended war under command of V Corps.[22]


• 1st London Division[63]
1st Line Territorial Army (Motor) division at the start of the war, with headquarters in Finsbury Barracks. 18 November 1940 redesignated 56th (London) Division.

• 2nd London Division[65]
2nd Line Territorial Army (Motor) division at the start of the war, with headquarters in the London District. On 21 November 1940, the division was renamed as the 47th (London) Infantry Division. Remained in the United Kingdom until 1 September 1944, when redesignated the 47th Infantry (Reserve) Division.

• 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division[84]
2nd Line Territorial Division. Formed September 1939 in the United Kingdom. Served in northwestern Europe from 14 June 1944 until the end of the war. Fought on the Odon River, at Caen, Mont Pincon, the Nederrijn, the Rhineland, and across the Rhine. Ended the campaign in northwestern Europe under command of VIII Corps.
• 18th Infantry Division[85]
2nd Line Territorial Division. Formed 30 September 1939 in the United Kingdom. Served in India January 1942 and in Malaya February 1942. 15 February 1942 captured by the Imperial Japanese Army in Malaya. Fought on Singapore Island.


• 38th (Welsh) Infantry Division[88]
2nd Line Territorial Army division, a duplicate of the 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division. The division became active on 18 September 1939.[89][90] The division spent the war within the United Kingdom on home defense duties, being downgraded to the Lower Establishment on 1 December 1941. On 15 August 1944, the division was disbanded.[91] On 1 September 1944, the division was reformed as the 38th Infantry (Reserve) Division, a training formation, which replaced the 80th Infantry (Reserve) Division (that had been disbanded) as Western Command's training formation until the end of the war when it was again disbanded.

• 45th Infantry Division[97]
2nd Line Territorial Division, formed September 1939 in the United Kingdom. August 1944 division dispersed. 1 September 1944 Redesignated 45th (Holding) Division. 1 December 1944 redesignated 45th Division. Under War Office Control at the end of the war.

• 54th (East Anglian) Infantry Division[105]
1st Line Territorial Army division at the start of the war, with headquarters in The Barracks, Hertford. 14 December 1943 disbanded in the United Kingdom.
• 55th (West Lancashire) Infantry Division[106]
1st Line Territorial Army (Motor) division at the start of the war, with headquarters in Liverpool. Never left the United Kingdom. Ended the war under command of Western Command.
• 59th (Staffordshire) Infantry Division[108]
2nd Line Territorial Army (Motor) division formed 4 September 1939 in the United Kingdom. Fought at Caen and Mount Pincon. Served in northwestern Europe from June 1944 until October 1944. 19 October 1944 disbanded in northwestern Europe.
I know that not all of them were at full trength or anything near that in the Summer of 1940, but none of the above had been deployed to France in 1940.

It seems a bit much for 5 Paratroops Divisions to handle.
Source?

Richard Anderson
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Richard Anderson » 27 Feb 2021 04:24

historygeek2021 wrote:
27 Feb 2021 01:08
Source?
Looks like Wiki and has a few problems, but otherwise, as of 31 May 1940 it was:

Scottish Command - 9th (Scottish) Division with 49th Div Artillery
Northern Command - 54th (East Anglian) Division, 66th (Lancashire and Border) Division, one brigade of 59th Division, 2d Armoured Division, and the artillery of 23d and 46th Division
Eastern Command - 18th (East Anglian) Division, 1st and 2d London Division, 55th (West Lancashire) Division, 43d (Wessex) Division, 15th (Scottish) Division), 45th (West Country) Division, the artillery of 12th Division, and 20th Armoured Brigade
Southern Command - 52d (Lowland) Division qnd 61st (South Midland) Division
Aldershot - 1st Canadian Division
Western Command - 59th (Staffordshire) Division (-) and 38th (Welsh) Division

Source is CAB 801/12, COS(40)417, Forces for the Defence of the United Kingdom, Memoranda by C-in-C Home Forces, 31 May 1940. See also, David John Newbold's PhD thesis, British Planning and Preparations to Resist Invasion on Land, September 1939-September 1940 for more details.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

historygeek2021
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by historygeek2021 » 27 Feb 2021 04:39

Thanks. What do "CAB" and "COS" mean in your cite? Where does one find this publication?

Richard Anderson
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Richard Anderson » 27 Feb 2021 07:45

historygeek2021 wrote:
27 Feb 2021 04:39
Thanks. What do "CAB" and "COS" mean in your cite? Where does one find this publication?
CAB = Cabinet, it is the abbreviation for the record group at The [British] National Archives (TNA) for records of the Prime Minister's Cabinet. In this case, COS = Chiefs of Staff, which was the COS Committee within the Cabinet.

In a sense I suppose it isn't a "publication" like a book or magazine, it is an official government record, although quite a few of the Cabinet records were/are nicely printed out in something like a pamphlet form by HMSO = His (now Her) Majesty's Stationary Office...much like the Congressional Record is printed.

I note I was sloppy though, sorry, that should be "CAB 80/12/27" and not "CAB 801/12". I just remembered too as a result of Covid, TNA has allowed free access to considerable digital content, especially in the CAB series. Go to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... r/C9195452 if you would like to download it. It is in the first of the three PDFs,on pages 95-98 of the PDF and pages 97-100 of the document. This one gives units and artillery strengths, there are others that give AFV states as well. For example, as of 10 June there were 43 "light wheeled tanks" (AKA armored cars :D ), 447 tracked light tanks, 103 cruiser tanks, and 114 infantry tanks in England (CAB 70/1, DC(S) (40) 4th, Annex, Statement of Tank Position as known on 10 June 1940, 11 June 1940, which is found at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /r/C386988, but sadly has not been digitized.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

historygeek2021
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by historygeek2021 » 27 Feb 2021 16:27

Thank you!

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