What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

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Luthfi nasution
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What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Luthfi nasution » 24 Nov 2021 09:22

So, i have a little debate with my friend. he said that panzergrenadier purpose is not supporting the tanks, instead the tanks support the panzergrenadier. he also stated that panzergrenadier is separated from the panzer division. this makes me get confused since from what i know the panzergrenadier's task is supporting the tanks. So, which one is the right purpose for the panzergrenadier?

AriX
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by AriX » 26 Nov 2021 14:11

There were panzergrenadiers in panzer divs and separate panzergrenadier divisions.

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stg 44
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by stg 44 » 02 Dec 2021 03:43

Luthfi nasution wrote:
24 Nov 2021 09:22
So, i have a little debate with my friend. he said that panzergrenadier purpose is not supporting the tanks, instead the tanks support the panzergrenadier. he also stated that panzergrenadier is separated from the panzer division. this makes me get confused since from what i know the panzergrenadier's task is supporting the tanks. So, which one is the right purpose for the panzergrenadier?
Generally speaking until about 1944 in a panzer division the panzergrenadier regiments (aka their infantry) formed the basis of kampgruppen with attached elements like panzers, recon, artillery, etc.

Later (late 1943 or 1944, I'm not 100% sure) it was determined that 'armored battle groups' worked best (and 1943 is when these armored elements that weren't panzers started to become common in panzer divisions) so at that point they strove to combine the armored regiment with the halftrack infantry battalion (1 of 4 infantry battalions in a panzer division...theoretically), some recon elements, the self propelled artillery battalion, and the armored engineers into a battle group and leave the motorized infantry battalions to hold ground or support the armor battle group in some fashion. Effectively the 'house infantry' of the armored battle group directly supported the panzers by close support to keep them moving, as they had mobility roughly similar to that of the panzers and other tracked elements in the battle group. Meanwhile the motorized elements of the division had to dismount before combat and couldn't keep up with the tracked panzers and other elements, so given their different capabilities they covered other roles that traditional infantry were expected to fill, just more mobile and with heavier firepower but fewer men (again theoretically assuming anything was up to TOE by 1944).

Then there were panzergrenadier divisions, which were motorized, so did not support panzers directly. Later on though (again 1944) they were theoretically supposed to start effectively turning into 'light' panzer divisions with a single battalion of panzer (which material shortages prevented) for support, which would mean those panzers would support the infantry rather than the inverse.

Thomas Anderson's book 'Panzergrenadier' covers the topic very well.

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Aida1
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Aida1 » 23 Aug 2022 11:03

I will quote Panzer Marsch Heinz Guderian Schild Verlag 1955 pp160-162 on this subject
' In recognition of its bravery-the losses of the infantry were besides these of the engineers the highest in the 2nd world War-the armored infantry got the designation panzergrenadiere in 1942. The name panzerdragoons which had been proposed by the inspection of panzer troops because of the mounted and dismounted méthod of combat would no doubt have been more characteristic for this young weapon and would more clearer have emphasized the difference with motorized infantry.
During the war the APC was further developed from year to year. The medium 80 mm mortar in shooting from he APC was tested with success and introduced. The 75 mm gun on APC was I troduced in the companies at 2 vehicles each,20 MM flak and 28 cm rocket companies set up. The specification that weapons could be operated from the vehicles and while driving was with the then limited means largely met. A lower APC fully tracked, the 'Katzchen' was in development. The circonstances of the war did not allow the further development of this new fighting vehicle because of lack of raw material. '

To be continued.
Last edited by Aida1 on 23 Aug 2022 15:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Aida1
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Aida1 » 23 Aug 2022 14:34

Panzer Marsch continued.

'The common combat of the two sister weapons during the 2nd world War showed the following weaknesses and strengths:
The armor which protects against machine-gun, mortar and artillery shells as small caliber At guns, the always being prepared to fire and the high tempo of attack were the main strengths of the tank. It's weakness was the impeded observation and the absence of indirect fire weapons. The individual tank was a big target that was vulnerable to antitank weapons and mines just as the dismounted panzergrenadiere were to artillery, machine-gun and rifle fire.
The panzergrenadiere could always hear and see fully from its open APC., so that it could faster recognize and suppress enemy At guns and close range At teams. It's mortars, infantry guns and close range weapons allowed it to reach behind cover, to attack and to destroy crews of trenches, houses and bunkers. In mounted, dismounted and again mounted combat it was capable to suppress the enemy together with the tanks and break resistance that flares up again in the depth of the battlefield. Radios enabled an agile command. '

To be continued

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Aida1
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Aida1 » 23 Aug 2022 15:23

Panzer Marsch continued
' The APC was only weakly armored and does not protect against At guns and direct artillery and flak fire. Making the heavy weapons ready to fire took time. In addition a killed APC meant at least temporarily the loss of a whole panzer grenadier group on the battlefield.
Therefore the precondition for a successful collaboration was a mutual understanding and above all full knowledge of mutual strengths and weaknesses.
The panzer crew had to endeavor to protect the panzergrenadiere against its most dangerous enemies, tanks and At guns, but also give fire support against tough resistance. The panzergrenadiere had to timely recognize and take out antitank weapons he has to know that the tank is in many instances, especially in urban,wood and night combat as in fighting against obstacles and barriers, reliant on its support. '

To be continued.

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Aida1
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Aida1 » 23 Aug 2022 17:35

Panzer Marsch continued.
'The communication was from commander to commander by radio, by direct firing with tracer and signaling through arm, flashing and flag signals., but the most efficient assured by personal discussion of the officers and NCO' s before and during combat.
The main mission of the panzergrenadiere batallions and regiments was the accompanying of the Panzer attack. They were especially needed :
in combat in closed covered terrain, through woods, over rivers and in urban combat
In overcoming defended minefields or At gun fronts
In panzer attacks by night
While it was the task of the more invulnerable tanks to wage the fight against the enemy tanks, At guns, heavy weapons and artillery, the panzergrenadiere secured the attacking tanks against short range antitank teams. While the the heavy weapons of the enemy were suppressed by tanks and artillery, the APC's broke into the enemy, securing each other.
When they had to advance mounted or dismounted through the first wave of the tanks, could best be determined by the independent judgment of the panzergrenadiere because this timing was very different according to terrain and local enemy resistance. The faster the suppressive effect of tanks and artillery could be used and the more it could be reinforced and prolonged by the own weapons, the easier was the execution of the attack. '

To be continued

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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Aida1 » 23 Aug 2022 19:27

Panzer Marsch continued
"The combat by the dismounted units took place in in storm group fashion. It's objective was to roll up enemy infantry positions. destroy close range AT fighters and At guns, especially on reverse slopes or clear up other obstacles in collaboration with panzer engineers. As soon as the road was clear for the further advance of the tanks, the first to follow were the still mounted parts of the panzergrenadiere. The others assembled at their driven up vehicles and followed also without delay.
In the defense and retreat the main mission of the panzergrenadiere was
The support of the tanks in counterthrust and counterattack to clear up break-ins of the enemy
In attacking broken through enemy in the flank or other favorable positions
In flank protection or fast occupation of lines of resistance. "

To be continued

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Aida1
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Re: What is the mission or task be given to the panzergrenadier?

Post by Aida1 » 24 Aug 2022 09:56

Panzer Marsch pp 160-162 concluded
"The APC batallion had a much greater driving range as the tanks. Therefore it could also execute autonomous missions during the collaboration, for example a fast continuation of a pursuit, destruction of marching up reserves, fleeing supply columns etc... Especially important was the fast occupying of key points(heights, crossroads, towns).before the enemy could fix himself there and organize new resistance. As much as possible they would be supported in this from tanks, as they could not cope with a sudden attack of enemy tanks.
Thus, tanks and panzergrenadiere developed in the course of the war to a community which brought its different but supplementary qualities fully to bear and could through this obtain many successes. "

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