That exactly what you did, even if reality was somewhat different.”Counter” wrote:You can choose the adverb and adjectives as you please,”Ironmachine” wrote:So Franco wrote a letter to Hitler and his foreign minister had a meeting with him. That's is very, very far from "asking to Hitler desperately"...
Yes, there was a continuity, but not the one you think. At the Hendaya meeting, Franco rejected Hitler demands, but of course with soft words. After Hendaya, with the German armies still at the Spanish border, Franco went on saying that he was ready to join the Axis “if only”…”Counter” wrote: but there is a clear continuity from the Hendaye meeting, and then Franco trying to secure "a private guarantee" for the expected colonial booty.
Yes, at the end, no territories, no supplies, no military equipment, no Spain joining the Axis. That’s pretty obvious. Or did you expect Spain to join the Axis for nothing?”Counter” wrote: At the end, no booty, no Spain joining the Axis.
Again insulting me?[/quote]”Counter” wrote: quote=”Ironmachine”] Another lie about what I said. I never claimed that Spain joining the Axis was impossible.
The truth is never considered an insult by rational people.
The difference, as always, is in the details, details that you seem unable to see.”Counter” wrote: The same thing, again? post 85, page 6, this threadWhere is the difference between claiming that Spain would starve if joining the Axis and claiming that Spain joning the Axis was impossible?”Ironmachine” wrote:The Spanish authorities were not stupid, and even they could see that there was no point of obtaining some territories in Africa while your population is dying in droves because you can't replace the supplies that are not coming from the Allies because you have joined the Axis
I will say it again: I don’t think that Spain joining the Axis was impossible, I think that Spain joining the Axis in 1940 simply by negotiation was highly unlikely because Germany can not give what Spain wants and Spain has no need to lower its demands. Still, there are many posible scenarios in which Spain could have joined the Axis: if Germany threatens with invasión, if the British cut the arrival of supplies in retaliation to Spanish acts, if Spanish authorities decide that the war could be short enough as to risk the consequences, if a more pro-Axis Spanish leader stages a coup and takes power in Spain… Can you see the differences?
Yes, the British believed there was some possibility that Spain would join the Axis. So do I, so what?”Counter” wrote:No, we moved forward a little bit: British were trying to keep Spain neutral because they knew that Spain joining the Axis was possible -even if the british knew perfectly the serious problem of food supplies in Spain- and the Germans wanted to pay the minimum to get Spain into the Axis... but Franco knew they could have paid more. Hitler didn´t pay for several reasons. Maybe because he didn´t realize how important Gibraltar was ("Raeder proposal"), maybe the german experts in economy -that you quoted- never realized that spanish needs, particularly on grain, were actually realistic and not a fabrication -for british ambassador Hoare, it took some effort to convince the authorities in London of that. Anyway, he desisted. If Hitler tried it later, it was because trying costed nothing and Hitler knew that in Spain there were some authorities (some military, some fascist politicians) also interested.”Ironmachine” wrote: we are back where we began. The British were trying to keep Spain neutral( non-belligerant, really). The Germans were trying to make Spain their ally at the minimum possible cost.
As for the rest of the paragraph, you spent a lot of words to say what we already knew: that Hitler didn’t give what he was asked for and consequently Spain didn’t join the Axis.
However, there are some incongruencies in your text that you may want to polish, namely:
-If the British knew perfectly the serious problema of food supplies in Spain, why did it take the British ambassador Hoare some effort to convice the authorities in London of that?
-What does it matter that the German experts in economy that I quoted never realized that the Spanish needs were realistic and not a fabrication, considering that those German experts in economy acknowledged the fact that the needs could not be satisfied?
The same reason would apply to the case of Spain: he didn’t have enough equipment and supplies for everyone. And it could have led to the same result: an Axis defeat.”Counter” wrote:Interesting reasoning. Hitler didn´t equip italian and romanian infantry probably because he didn´t have enough equipment for everyone -one reason why Axis loosed-.”Ironmachine” wrote: Let's see if an example (even if certainly remote) can help you to understand the problem. Hitler had weapons, generally better tanks than his allies. Sending Romanian and Italian troops to the Eastern Front without adecuate weapons and putting them on the line is going to cause a problem to Mussolini, Antonescu and, certainly, also Hitler. But still, did Hitler (could he, actually?) reequip those troops with better German weapons?
And they also proved to be a weak link in the Axis military. Just as the Spanish armed forces would have been in the case of a Mediterranean strategy.”Counter” wrote: Anyway, italian and romanian infantry proved to be useful in the Eastern Front.
It is not the same problem by any measure. Franco can go on ruling Spain without entering the war, but Hitler can not use Spain for his purposes while Spain is neutral. Hitler can always treat Spain as a conquered country and disregard the Spaniards, but Franco does not have that option.”Ironmachine” wrote: But if Hitler wouldn´t send grain enough for Spaniards not to starve (something he did, for example with the Finns) Hitler and Franco would have the same problem: a country (an ally) they can not rule.
Even if the Germans could keep Spain working as the 1940 level (without considering that Spain would be now fighting a war and its needs would be higher than in peace time), and even without discussing if that was possible for the Germans (which is far from proven), there’s a point that you ignore and reveals your shallow thinking: Why on earth would the Spanish authorities agree to enter a world war just to keep the country as they have it as a neutral?”Counter” wrote:Like in 1940... and not worse.”Ironmachine” wrote:what do you mean by "keep the country working" exactly? Working as it was already working in 1940?
Yes, again. By simply keeping your “minimal” as arbitrarily low as you need to fullfil your argument, you could always claim that Germany could have provided the minimal resources needed to keep Spain working. But that’s not going to work in the real world.”Counter” wrote:Again!”Ironmachine” wrote:I never said that Germany could not provide the "minimal" resources needed to keep Spain "working", whatever that may mean.
i can't believe what i just saw! When you write the “now we know that Spanish demands on gain were correct”, are you actually saying that now you believe that Spanish demands on grain were actually the real needs, and that no lesser (i.e. mínimum) amount would have been enough to sustain the Spanish people? And I suppose that if that is what you believe, then Spanish demands in other materials would have been also the real needs, wouldn’t they? And those same German experts acknowledged that Germany could not fulfill them!”Counter” wrote: Again you mention the document of the "german experts". In the same document the experts say that they think that the spanish demands (particularly on grain) are false, intentionally exaggerated. That turns that document only partially relevant, because now we know that spanish demands on grain were correct, something that logically the germans also would have learned (as british did). It is nonsense -in my view- that Hitler would treat Spain like an occupied country and not an ally.
Or is it that you are stepping back in that matter because if you don’t accept that Spanish demands were really the Spanish needs and instead keep on saying that they were too much inflated, then you would have to concede that those same German experts were right when they said that the requests “[…]are so obviously unrealizable that they can only be evaluated as an expression of the effort to avoid entering the war under this pretext.” The same Franco that so much wanted to join the Axis, that was "asking to Hitler desperately” (your words!) is the same Franco that is making absurd demands to avoid entering the war?
You can't have it both ways, Either the Spanish demands were the real thing, and then Germany could not fullfil them and Spain would have not joined the Axis by negotiation, or Spanish demands were inflated on purpose to have an excuse to avoid entering the war, in which case is self-evident that Franco did not want to join the war and Spain would have not joined the Axis by negotiation.
And Spain, for her part, could have declared herself ready to deliver to Germany, immediately after undertaking entrance into the war, one thousand jet fighters, one million Tiger tanks, five battleships with 666mm guns, a pair of atomic bombs, the head of Winston Churchill, a British surrender document signed by King George VI, a coupon for a paid vacation in Benidorm for Hitler and all his cronies and two hard boiled eggs (perhaps this last part is going too far, Hitler could have been offended by the Marxist reference ). At least the Spanish proposal, unlike the German one, is concrete, even if utterly unrealizable.”Counter” wrote: Germany, however, has for her part, declared herself ready to deliver to Spain, immediately after undertaking entrance into the war, food, that is-grain-to as great an extent as possible!
What in hell is the meaning of “to as great an extent as possible.” Do you seriously believe that Franco and the Spanish authorities (if they really wanted to, which as previously explained is far from certain) are going to enter a wold war with a 1940 Spain just because Hitler says that he is going to send food, well, in fact only grain “to as great an extent as possible” (Hitler forgot to add: “and, you know, the rest of the supplies and territories and the military equipment you also asked for, well, err, we will talk about that in my next letter, after you enter the war…”).
Also, I cannot fail to note that in a previous post (post 98 of this thread) you posted:
So you think that two months before 12 February 1941, Hitler was lacking interest in Spain’s entry in the war… and here we have a letter from him dated 6 February 1941 still trying to convince Franco to enter the war! It seems that Hitler is not lacking in interest, but on bargaining chips.”Counter” wrote: Ironmachine added a text with date February 12 1941 stating that Germany could not provide Spain with "rubber, cotton and jute" but about the rest obviously that can be negotiated depending on the "Top-level decision". Anyway, that was two months after Franco decided not to join Axis due to the lack of interest of Hitler (no offer of a considerable colonial booty for Spain... and not a proportionate threat against the Franco´s government either).
No, you can keep repeating that for as long as you want, but it is simply not true. Spain asked for colonial territories, supplies to keep the contry working and the people living and military equipment so that the Spanish forces could fight, and Germany couldn’t provide any of that in the quantities Spain asked for.”Counter” wrote:What Spain asked and Germany didn´t want to provide was not grain to avoid the country to starve, but colonial territories.
As a matter of fact supplies and military equipment were needed for fighting and surviving the war, so they were really necessary, while the territories were not vital, they were just a reward, and as such much more open to negotiation as to what and when.
You should look no further than the letter form Hitler of February 1941 that you linked in your previous post. Hitler makes no promises on territorial concessions, just saying a “we will see” with other words, and keeps talking about economy, food, and supplies. It seems that, unlike you, Hitler considered grain and other supplies a vital Spanish demand, while the matter of territories was somewhat less important.