How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

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DavidFrankenberg
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How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Jun 2023 19:59

I heard German soldiers were in suburbs, tramway station, like 10 km.

Ian Kershaw say so in Barbarossa war without garlands p.517.

He quotes a German lieutenant of the 5th Division of Infantry.

This testimony is often repeated. But I think it is false.

What is true ?

OpanaPointer
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by OpanaPointer » 30 Jun 2023 20:38

Present your case as to why it is false.
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Art
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Art » 30 Jun 2023 21:48

I beileve, by that point the German 5 Infantry Division was already reforming in France.

You can find plenty of situation relevant maps, which mostly answer you question, here:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ntr?page=2

anonjosh731
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by anonjosh731 » 01 Jul 2023 05:04

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
30 Jun 2023 19:59
I heard German soldiers were in suburbs, tramway station, like 10 km.

Ian Kershaw say so in Barbarossa war without garlands p.517.

He quotes a German lieutenant of the 5th Division of Infantry.

This testimony is often repeated. But I think it is false.

What is true ?
Hi David, I know this is not the best place to ask but I have no choice because I am new to the forum (no DMs) and can't reply to the post I would like to; That being about Robert Ley.

Do you have a screenshot and/or quote/page number from Ich Glaubte an Hitler about his last name being Levy? I have found 2 other independent sources that corroborate the claim.

Thanks,

Josh.

mezsat2
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by mezsat2 » 02 Jul 2023 00:02

They were very close. Diversion of Guderian's panzerarmee saved the city and possibly the entire nation.

Were Moscow siezed, as planned, in August, it would have prevented much of the evacuation of industry to the Urals by Stalin. Most heavy rail was directed straight through Moscow.

Were the Wehrmacht allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before winter, the residual forces in Ukraine would have been obliged to come to its rescue. There. they would have been destroyed wholesale. The Siberian forces would be able to do little but try to stabilize the flanks around the city.

GregSingh
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by GregSingh » 02 Jul 2023 03:53

Already discussed:

Moscow who got closer?
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23260&start=15

Moscow Tram Stop by Dr Heinrich Haape
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=60404&p=2278755

German advance on Moscow-Khimki
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=194166&p=2234765

Albertdean
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Albertdean » 04 Jul 2023 09:38

The events and details surrounding World War II are complex and can sometimes be subject to varying interpretations and accounts. While I don't have access to specific information from Ian Kershaw's book or the exact testimony you mentioned, it is important to approach historical accounts with critical thinking and consider multiple perspectives.

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2023 14:57

mezsat2 wrote:
02 Jul 2023 00:02
They were very close. Diversion of Guderian's panzerarmee saved the city and possibly the entire nation.

Were Moscow siezed, as planned, in August, it would have prevented much of the evacuation of industry to the Urals by Stalin. Most heavy rail was directed straight through Moscow.

Were the Wehrmacht allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before winter, the residual forces in Ukraine would have been obliged to come to its rescue. There. they would have been destroyed wholesale. The Siberian forces would be able to do little but try to stabilize the flanks around the city.
The population of Moscow in 1941 was some 4 million .To capture and occupy such a city a few tanks would not suffice : an infantry army of at least 20 divisions would be needed and the forces in Ukraine would not be obliged to come to its rescue .
It is also wrong to say " If the WM was allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before the winter '', correct would be to say " If the WM was capable to push on through and seize Moscow before the winter ''.
I like also to see the proofs that it was planned to seize Moscow in August .

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Aida1
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Aida1 » 04 Jul 2023 16:08

ljadw wrote:
04 Jul 2023 14:57
mezsat2 wrote:
02 Jul 2023 00:02
They were very close. Diversion of Guderian's panzerarmee saved the city and possibly the entire nation.

Were Moscow siezed, as planned, in August, it would have prevented much of the evacuation of industry to the Urals by Stalin. Most heavy rail was directed straight through Moscow.

Were the Wehrmacht allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before winter, the residual forces in Ukraine would have been obliged to come to its rescue. There. they would have been destroyed wholesale. The Siberian forces would be able to do little but try to stabilize the flanks around the city.
The population of Moscow in 1941 was some 4 million .To capture and occupy such a city a few tanks would not suffice : an infantry army of at least 20 divisions would be needed and the forces in Ukraine would not be obliged to come to its rescue .
It is also wrong to say " If the WM was allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before the winter '', correct would be to say " If the WM was capable to push on through and seize Moscow before the winter ''.
I like also to see the proofs that it was planned to seize Moscow in August .
Moscow was a means to an end. It would not be occupied. It would be encircled.

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2023 19:15

The encirclement of Moscow would tie dozens of German divisions and make an advance east of Moscow impossible .

Art
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Art » 04 Jul 2023 19:47

Either occupation of Moscow or encirclement were beyond of realm of possibility by early December 1941. The German army was simply at the end of tether and had no reserves as opposed to ample fresh reserves from the Soviet side. Further events on the front demonstrated it clearly.

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Aida1
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Jul 2023 07:56

ljadw wrote:
04 Jul 2023 19:15
The encirclement of Moscow would tie dozens of German divisions and make an advance east of Moscow impossible .
Does not matter at all and incorrect anyway.

Martin_from_Valhalla
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Martin_from_Valhalla » 05 Jul 2023 08:55

30 km from The Red Square and Kremlin.

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 05 Jul 2023 10:52

What means here "the Wehrmacht '' ?
The WM was never close to Moscow, some units were ''close '' to Moscow .

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Aida1
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Jul 2023 17:33

ljadw wrote:
05 Jul 2023 10:52
What means here "the Wehrmacht '' ?
The WM was never close to Moscow, some units were ''close '' to Moscow .
Semantics. :roll:

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