How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
DavidFrankenberg
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 05 Jul 2023 21:08

GregSingh wrote:
02 Jul 2023 03:53
Already discussed:

Moscow who got closer?
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23260&start=15

Moscow Tram Stop by Dr Heinrich Haape
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=60404&p=2278755

German advance on Moscow-Khimki
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=194166&p=2234765
Thanks !

This one is pretty good :
What German Unit First Saw the Spires of the Kremlin?
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=93201

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 05 Jul 2023 21:45

anonjosh731 wrote:
01 Jul 2023 05:04
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
30 Jun 2023 19:59
I heard German soldiers were in suburbs, tramway station, like 10 km.

Ian Kershaw say so in Barbarossa war without garlands p.517.

He quotes a German lieutenant of the 5th Division of Infantry.

This testimony is often repeated. But I think it is false.

What is true ?
Hi David, I know this is not the best place to ask but I have no choice because I am new to the forum (no DMs) and can't reply to the post I would like to; That being about Robert Ley.

Do you have a screenshot and/or quote/page number from Ich Glaubte an Hitler about his last name being Levy? I have found 2 other independent sources that corroborate the claim.

Thanks,

Josh.
Hi,
the correct topic is there
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=241726&hilit=Hans+Hinkel
Please a moderator could move the post there ?
I only found a French translation of Baldur's book :
ley.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 08 Jul 2023 05:30

As long we have not seen the aryanization certificate of Ley ,there is no reason to believe the story that Ley ( son of a farmer ) was Jewish .

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 08 Jul 2023 05:35

In 1936 Leo Raugenhother ,a Jewish Czech, was sentenced to 6 months of prison for having said that Ley was born Levy .
Source : JTA .

Art
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by Art » 08 Jul 2023 22:37

BTW the thing much less known (or much less noticed) is that in the first days of December 1941 forward German elements were about 11 km from the Zhukov's HQ at Vlasikha (by straight line). Which was closer than the distance from Lobnya or Krasnaya Polyana to the administrative border of Moscow back then.

anonjosh731
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by anonjosh731 » 12 Jul 2023 02:52

ljadw wrote:
08 Jul 2023 05:30
As long we have not seen the aryanization certificate of Ley ,there is no reason to believe the story that Ley ( son of a farmer ) was Jewish .
There is no reason to doubt what he said in his book. Additionally, a Jew was jailed for privately saying he was Jewish and in the book "Germany Will Try It Again" by Sigrid Schultz, she says there was a book circulated in 1933, where Robert frankly admitted that his original name had been Levy. She goes on to say "The book admitting Ley's racial origin vanished from circulation when the more rigid anti-Semetic laws were issued."

It should be noted that Brian Rigg has stated most relevant documents tracing the ancestry of top Nazi officials had been destroyed.
Last edited by anonjosh731 on 12 Jul 2023 02:55, edited 1 time in total.

anonjosh731
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by anonjosh731 » 12 Jul 2023 02:53

Hi,
the correct topic is there
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=241726&hilit=Hans+Hinkel
Please a moderator could move the post there ?
I only found a French translation of Baldur's book :
ley.png
[/quote]

Thank-you very much.

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 12 Jul 2023 06:10

anonjosh731 wrote:
12 Jul 2023 02:52
ljadw wrote:
08 Jul 2023 05:30
As long we have not seen the aryanization certificate of Ley ,there is no reason to believe the story that Ley ( son of a farmer ) was Jewish .
There is no reason to doubt what he said in his book. Additionally, a Jew was jailed for privately saying he was Jewish and in the book "Germany Will Try It Again" by Sigrid Schultz, she says there was a book circulated in 1933, where Robert frankly admitted that his original name had been Levy. She goes on to say "The book admitting Ley's racial origin vanished from circulation when the more rigid anti-Semetic laws were issued."

It should be noted that Brian Rigg has stated most relevant documents tracing the ancestry of top Nazi officials had been destroyed.
Sigrid Schulz was an American journalist ! on the level of William Shirer and 'Germany will try it again '' was published in 1944 , thus war propaganda .
What was the title of the book that circulated in 1933 and who was the author ?
That a Jewish Czech ( not a Jew ) was jailed for saying that Ley was Jewish is NOT a proof that Ley was Jewish .
About Rigg : how can he know that there were documents tracing the ancestry of top Nazi officials ? And how can he know that most of the relevant documents were destroyed ?
Other point :that the name of the father of Ley was Levy,does not prove that the father of Ley or Ley were Jewish .
I like also to see the judicial/administrative documents proving that the name of the father ( or was it Ley himself ? )was changed by a court .
The whole story is very unlikely because if it was true and if there were proofs,the German opponents of the regime outside Germany ( SOPADE ) and the foreign media would have published the story .

mezsat2
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by mezsat2 » 13 Jul 2023 05:44

ljadw wrote:
04 Jul 2023 14:57
mezsat2 wrote:
02 Jul 2023 00:02
They were very close. Diversion of Guderian's panzerarmee saved the city and possibly the entire nation.

Were Moscow siezed, as planned, in August, it would have prevented much of the evacuation of industry to the Urals by Stalin. Most heavy rail was directed straight through Moscow.

Were the Wehrmacht allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before winter, the residual forces in Ukraine would have been obliged to come to its rescue. There. they would have been destroyed wholesale. The Siberian forces would be able to do little but try to stabilize the flanks around the city.
The population of Moscow in 1941 was some 4 million .To capture and occupy such a city a few tanks would not suffice : an infantry army of at least 20 divisions would be needed and the forces in Ukraine would not be obliged to come to its rescue .
It is also wrong to say " If the WM was allowed to push on through and seize Moscow before the winter '', correct would be to say " If the WM was capable to push on through and seize Moscow before the winter ''.
I like also to see the proofs that it was planned to seize Moscow in August .
The Germans had many more than a "few tanks" in August 1941. It had 40 infantry divisions and at least 1000 good tanks available for the attack. At the very least, seizure of the city would have provided decent shelter for the troops during the brutal winter. Enough loot would be available for subsistence, presumably. Beyond that, it's all conjecture.

anonjosh731
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by anonjosh731 » 14 Jul 2023 18:46

ljadw wrote:
12 Jul 2023 06:10
anonjosh731 wrote:
12 Jul 2023 02:52
ljadw wrote:
08 Jul 2023 05:30
As long we have not seen the aryanization certificate of Ley ,there is no reason to believe the story that Ley ( son of a farmer ) was Jewish .
There is no reason to doubt what he said in his book. Additionally, a Jew was jailed for privately saying he was Jewish and in the book "Germany Will Try It Again" by Sigrid Schultz, she says there was a book circulated in 1933, where Robert frankly admitted that his original name had been Levy. She goes on to say "The book admitting Ley's racial origin vanished from circulation when the more rigid anti-Semetic laws were issued."

It should be noted that Brian Rigg has stated most relevant documents tracing the ancestry of top Nazi officials had been destroyed.
Sigrid Schulz was an American journalist ! on the level of William Shirer and 'Germany will try it again '' was published in 1944 , thus war propaganda .
What was the title of the book that circulated in 1933 and who was the author ?
That a Jewish Czech ( not a Jew ) was jailed for saying that Ley was Jewish is NOT a proof that Ley was Jewish .
About Rigg : how can he know that there were documents tracing the ancestry of top Nazi officials ? And how can he know that most of the relevant documents were destroyed ?
Other point :that the name of the father of Ley was Levy,does not prove that the father of Ley or Ley were Jewish .
I like also to see the judicial/administrative documents proving that the name of the father ( or was it Ley himself ? )was changed by a court .
The whole story is very unlikely because if it was true and if there were proofs,the German opponents of the regime outside Germany ( SOPADE ) and the foreign media would have published the story .
"Sigrid Schulz was an American journalist ! ...thus war propaganda."

Sure thing. Your point-blank denial means nothing, really. The other details she wrote on the same page are in fact true - that people of Jewish descent held important posts, and about Haushofer. I've skimmed through the book and there is nothing false about what she said in other areas. Moreover, she is corroborated by a Czechoslovakian Jew (so yes, a Jew) who stated it in private conversation, and by Baldur von Schirach. Hans Hinkel also confirmed that it was claimed before 33. So the point is, there are multiple independent sources that point to this conclusion.

As I said, there is no reason to doubt what Schirach said in his book. You can deny it, though.

"About Rigg"

Why don't you ask him and read his books.

"The whole story is very unlikely because if it was true and if there were proofs,the German opponents of the regime outside Germany ( SOPADE ) and the foreign media would have published the story"

No, sorry. Your logic doesn't follow since Goering's No. 2, Milch, was known to be part Jewish (possibly fully Jewish by material line) yet it was only reported a few times. Same with Emil Maurice, Heydrich, Wermahct generals who were Russian-Jewish, and others. It was not until after the war that the Jewish ancestry of Nazis had been examined in greater detail and expanded on.

Also, Schulz's report was published in at least 1 Jewish newspaper years later on Feb 4, 1944.

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jul 2023 20:17

The stories of Milch and Heydrich being part Jewish are unproved and are inventions .A Mischling (if this unproved story was true ) is not a Jew .
What Schirach told in his memoirs ! (every one knows that memoirs can not be trusted ) is unproved : he said,without giving a proof, that Hess had the proofs of the Jewish forefathers of Ley .How could Schirach know this ?
The words from Schirach and Hinkel prove nothing .As do the claims that one or more of Hitler's forefathers were Jewish .
About Rigg : professor Evans said that the titles of his books are misleading .Thus why should I read a book with as title :Hitler's Jewish soldiers ?

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jul 2023 20:29

About Heydrich see :Neue Quellen zur Abstammung Reinhard Heydrichs ifz 2000 ,and I have more faith in the Institut für Zeitgeschichte than in Rigg .
The conclusion of the author (Karin Flachowsky ) is that there are no proofs that Heydrich was Jewish .

anonjosh731
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by anonjosh731 » 14 Jul 2023 23:40

ljadw wrote:
14 Jul 2023 20:17
The stories of Milch and Heydrich being part Jewish are unproved and are inventions .A Mischling (if this unproved story was true ) is not a Jew .
What Schirach told in his memoirs ! (every one knows that memoirs can not be trusted ) is unproved : he said,without giving a proof, that Hess had the proofs of the Jewish forefathers of Ley .How could Schirach know this ?
The words from Schirach and Hinkel prove nothing .As do the claims that one or more of Hitler's forefathers were Jewish .
About Rigg : professor Evans said that the titles of his books are misleading .Thus why should I read a book with as title :Hitler's Jewish soldiers ?
Not true. And back to Robert Ley, the fact remains that there are multiple independent sources that point to this conclusion and your handwave attempting to cast doubt is desperate.

On to Milch: There are many documents that Rigg and others have cited proving Milch was "Aryanized" including some, for example, stating he was "50 percent Jew" (BA-MA, BMRS files, database of documented Wehrmacht soldiers; The same database that cites General Helmut Wilberg also part-Jewish) and it is already known he was not accepted into the Kaiser military schools due to his Jewish ancestry. Your reason to not look at Rigg's updated works is weak, anyone can see that.

The largest economic website in Israel has stated: "Milch family was quite secular - with the exception of some traditions such as lighting candles, celebrating holidays and bar mitzvahs."

The Evening Post, Volume CXXIV, Issue 152, 24 December 1937, Page 21 documents the fact that a member of the Gestapo uncovered that Milch stemmed from "mixed parents": that his father was a Jew.

Rigg elucidates here that Hitler was “whitewashing backgrounds” to “clean them up and make them Aryan." Goering was also involved in the Aryanization process of Milch.

https://youtu.be/rncbp1z1y5s

A shortened history: https://youtu.be/RRfCwrI--is

And about Heydrich: It is already proven he had Jewish origin. British author Charles Wighton proved this in his 1962 book Heydrich: Hitler's Most Evil Henchman, a biography of SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, the "architect of the Final Solution". Your citation doesn't adequately explain the fudged and missing parts of his ancestor list. It also doesn't attempt to explain why Bormann had an additional set of files that could not be included in normal Party archives. Nor does it explain why the information center "thought" his father was Jewish, (Hint: It was because they knew he was Jewish and historians of recent decades have further built on Wighton's case expanding it more than just his father) or why they there was much secrecy involved in the process that was otherwise public for other individuals. Also French Historian André Brissaud, the author of the Nazi Secret Service (1972). has explained his Jewish roots. Historians have also cited Riemanns Musik Lexikon from 1916 for proof stating that next to Bruno Heydrich’s name was the statement that his last name should actually be “Süss.” (A very common Jewish name) And even more historians have taken a different angle, proving that Himmler definitely believed that Heydrich was of Jewish descent.

And speaking of Himmler and back to Milch, the ⁨⁨B'nai B'rith Messenger⁩ of 15 August 1941⁩ (p. 1) says that Milch was "Jewish-born" and "Himmler and Goebbels" hated him because of that. The Evening Post mentioned above also reported this.

Jewish historian Shimon Briman has stated: "Family history (of Heydrich) says that his grandmother married a Jew shortly after the birth of the father of the future chief of the RSHA."

WW2 Journalist and expert Rob Hopmans: "Heydrich’s grandmother was of Jewish descent and when he came to power in the SS he had the grave inscription changed and the pedigree papers disappeared."

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 15 Jul 2023 05:17

Charles Wighton claimed also that Adenauer was a democratic dictator !
And André Brissaud was a journalist .!

ljadw
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Re: How close the Wehrmacht was to Moscow ?

Post by ljadw » 15 Jul 2023 05:37

About Milch : there is no proof that Anton Milch was the father of Erhard Milch ;the police investigation could not prove it .
Besides :if Anton Milch, who was Jewish,was his father ,Milch would not be Jewish following the old religious Jewish law and for the Nürnberg laws, Milch could be only a Mischling ,a person of partial Jewish blood .
And a Mischling is not Jewish .
600000 people in Germany were labeled by the Nazis as Jews,although a lot of them did not consider themselves as Jews/Jewish .And were persecuted .
But it is more than possible that 6 million people in Germany had at least one Jewish ancestor,and none of them was persecuted. For obvious reasons .
Party members had to prove that since 1750 they had no Jewish ancestors/ancestor ,those who could not do this,were not persecuted .

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