Are they crazy???!! (why did Germany start the war?)

[Michael Kenny]

Quote:


" had Hitler’s offensive not been tampered with and allowed to proceed as it had from the out-set, the USSR would have collapsed by autumn."



Thats a new 'excuse' for me anyway. Now it is only because Hitler interfered in the operation that the Russians were saved! Usualy it is western trucks that saved Russia.
Hmm.......I wonder am I really the only one who thinks it is the Russians themselves who had something to do with it?

[Roger Griffiths]

My own analysis and view is that one has to go back to 1918. There were Germans, not necessarily in authority, who did not accept defeat. They blamed the 'stab in the back' by German civilians, and then Socialists and Jews. They recognized the efficiency of the Great German General Staff, which effectively ran Germany in the second half of WWI, under Erich von Ludendorff. You can forget the Kaiser, even he knew that he was no leader from Day 1. This had been all set up after the defeat at Jena in 1806, if there was another failed King like Frederick William III. This was all nonsense of course. The real reason was that the U.S. came into WWI. Effectively, France was neutralized by end of 1915, Russia defeated in 1917 and Britain was reduced to it's WWII frontage in 1918. The U.S. Army had the lions share of the Western Front by the end of WWI. This was just too much.

Hitler, remarkably, had a very understandable view of the European situation in the early 30's. This was that France was done for, Britain was not a continental power and anyway he had a soft spot for his British cousins and wanted their Empire to continue as a stabilizing factor in the World. Russia's military record impressed no one. The U.S. was isolationist and anyway had minimal forces. The error in this view was that Nazi Germany frightened everybody and forced them to coalesce. This had done for Louis XIV, and Napoleon. In detail, France was done for, Britain was in decline (They've lost their will, Mahatma Ghandi, 1935) but it was defensible because it still had a very large Navy. That meant that there was a springboard for U.S. involvement in Europe, if it so wished. Russia was not the old Russia. The Communists were totally ruthless and bore no comparison with even the best Czars. The U.S. could militarize to the strongest Power in the World within 2 years.

Within Germany, the Nazis thought that as long as defeatists and grumblers were taken out of circulation, permanently, and no 'nice guy' stuff, hence the SS, WWI could be re-run with a successful outcome.

Roger

[cyrill]

OK but here come another question. If Hitler didnt have plans for total war with Britain and USA why he didnt take stronger diplomatic measures to talk with the the British and to ensure some treaty with them which will clear his way for war only with russia.The Americans and the British Empire will be happy to see the Communists at thier knees. And He must have known that if he finish France, UK will not be happy at all with this and any peace between Germany and Great Britain will be impossible. After the invasion of Poland he could have easily start peace talkings with France and British Empire. The whole German political strategy at that time is very dodgy!

[Matthew Jordan]

OK but here come another question. If Hitler didnt have plans for total war with Britain and USA why he didnt take stronger diplomatic measures to talk with the the British and to ensure some treaty with them which will clear his way for war only with russia.The Americans and the British Empire will be happy to see the Communists at thier knees.

Rosevelt knew it was unacceptable for hitler to control continental Europe, Russia not in question.

It has always been the US's policy to maintain the balance of power in Europe, and prevent one nation from dominating central and western europe (and thus, challenging the US)

It draws striking paralells to the cold war, in that, the balance of power in the world have to be maintained from the [so-called 'evil'] communist threat.

[Matthew Jordan]

Whether he knew or not france and britain would declare war on Germany after poland is debateable... he did say something to the extent that "they don't want war, I saw the swine in munich"

Hitler had always been looking east.. he never wanted a war in the west, he wanted "lebenstraum" in the east (lebenstraum not just being the once thought "living space",) but rather, the economic advantages, and raw materials... he was living in a 'seige mentality' he wanted the Reich to be self-sufficient, he didn't want to end up as Germany was in WWI with it's population literally starving to death. and the British blocading Germany's materiel` routes.

I agree that Hitler wanted "new living space" in the East, but he always knew about a possible war against the West(France).
I have a small part of one of his exposes from 1936 where you can read that Hitler always thought about a war against France. I'm sorry that it is in German, but I try to translate the important part.

(...)
Zur Verbesserung unserer militärpolitischen Lage müsse in jedem Fall bei einer kriegerischen Verwicklung unser erstes Ziel sein, die Tschechei und gleichzeitig Österreich niederzuwerfen, um die Flankenbedrohung eines etwaigen Vorgehens nach Westen auszuschalten. (...)

(...)
To improve our military situation in a military involvment our first goal has to be to subdue Czechia and Austria, to eliminate a war on to fronts in a possible war in the West.(...)

source:
http://hometown.aol.de/razze002/Friedenhitler.html


I'm sorry, but that's the best way I can translate his expose. Maybe someone else can correct any mistakes.

Right, absolutely.

If war was inevitable in the West, it'd be brought to bear, but it was not something that was planned from the 'get-go'

I'm sure he would have preferred a neutral (or as Italy was for a time, a 'non-billigerant') France.

Once France took the some-what reluctant firm stance with Germany, it was clear there'd be war in the west... to this day it's shocking how inadiquate case yellow was in it's initial inception shortly after the fall of Poland.

[Roger Griffiths]

Britain also had an overall policy of Balance of Power in Europe and always had had. Diplomacy was never a stength of Germany, it got itself surrounded pre WWI. Hitler did not want War with Britain, and Britain under Chamberlain might have come to terms, but not under Churchill. The Germans offered France terms after the latters defeat in 1940, but they were turned down. From then on, the successes so far turned Hitlers head. He lost site of reality and entered the realm of hubris. It was the British who persuaded the Americans to prioritize on Europe before dealing with Japan. It should be remembered that a U.S. War aim was the end of the British Empire. Britain was the Superpower, and was recognized as such internationally, 1815 to 1948, when the U.S. took over.

Roger

[Jan-Hendrik]

But you have to mention that the Empire was already on its way down , WW II was only the last step to finish this historical evolution .


Jan-Hendrik

[Roger Griffiths]

I did, 'Their will has gone', Mahatma Gandi, 1935. To that, you can add, someone wrote a book on Britain in the 1930's entitled 'The Locust Years'. Someone took a rail journey from one end of the country to the other and described it as being like travelling through a dead country.

Roger

[Obserwator]

Source
http://www.third-reich-books.com/barbarossa.htm

What you have given as a source is a propaganda piece, promoting Hitler.And thus can't be considered reliable.
Examples :

More to the point, he had reversed wholesale retreat and imminent defeat into a new advance toward victory. In this, he proved himself beyond all doubt the best commander of the war, and among history’s greatest military geniuses

Nearly four years later, as Communist barbarians were poised to overwhelm Berlin,

It reaches of course points of absurdity :

"Free Arab" and "Free Indian" SS divisions were made up of volunteers who wanted to fight the Zionist Jews and imperialist English, respectively.
Even Tibetan warrior-monks mounted on their tough little Himalayan ponies trotting across the Steppes joined to chastise atheistic Communists.

[PAMO]

I am really sorry for the bad source I have chosen Obserwator and I agree that it is a propaganda piece.
I am very new in this English forum and I couldn't find any other sources in English.
In the past I only read information in German on the internet and I guess if I had posted a German document, not everyone could have translated it.
But I also think that in every propaganda there is a little bit of truth.

The actual reason why I think the Wehrmacht was stopped is, that they weren't prepared for the Russian winter and Stalin moved his troops from the far East to stop the Wehrmacht at Moscow and the whole front line.
But if the Germans had captured Moscow, I think the Russians would have beenn defeated.

[Matthew Jordan]

I am really sorry for the bad source I have chosen Obserwator and I agree that it is a propaganda piece.
I am very new in this English forum and I couldn't find any other sources in English.
In the past I only read information in German on the internet and I guess if I had posted a German document, not everyone could have translated it.
But I also think that in every propaganda there is a little bit of truth.

The actual reason why I think the Wehrmacht was stopped is, that they weren't prepared for the Russian winter and Stalin moved his troops from the far East to stop the Wehrmacht at Moscow and the whole front line.
But if the Germans had captured Moscow, I think the Russians would have beenn defeated.

Perhaps, but remember that when you're looking back on things that have already happened, you cannot be sure what the opposite side would have done should they have "X" as you describe..

This is where most arguments come from.. the fact that should one side do something, the other will inevitably react in such a manner that cannot be forseen.

A situation is a situation, it takes both sides to make it that, but when one acts, the other reacts, this must always be remembered.

[Doggowitz]

It should be mentioned that the UK and US a that time weren't that rabid anti-communist as some think. Anti-Communism in its best form rised after WWII and had it's peak in the 50's.

During the 1930's and 40's Facism and especially Nazism were seen by most people in the Anglo-American world as the greater evil. When in 1939 Hitler and Stalin made their pact, not few people thought that Hitler and Communism were together on their march to destroy western civilisation.

Especially Roosevelt acknowledged correctly verly early the fact that Facism has to be stamped out first.
But also Churchill who was a life-long anti-communist recognized that Britain must even ally with Stalin to defeat Germany.

Its also pretty hardly imaginable that Hitler and the German top officials didn't know that a war with France and Britain (and later the US) would be inevitable. Britain with Churchill on it top and the USA with Rooselvelt were clear enemies of the Reich.
And one must remind that it was Stalin with whom Hitler made a pact and not Churchill nor Roosevelt (who also said that a war with Germany will be inevitable.

For Nazi Germany a Greater German Reich would be nothing (even with Russia defeated) when the UK, France and USA are still in a powerful position like before.

[Matthew Jordan]

And one must remind that it was Stalin with whom Hitler made a pact and not Churchill nor Roosevelt (who also said that a war with Germany will be inevitable.

One wonders looking back, in the big "pact race" of mid-late '39, what would've happened had Ribbentrop not succeeded in time, and the USSR had a common alliance with Britain, to check German aggression. One wonders if the Soviets [assuming USSR-GB pact was in effect] would have checked (or prevented) the German attack on Poland. Goes to show on Aug 23, how greedy Stalin was to take eastern Poland. One wonders if Stalin and Molotov felt secure in their decision [long-term wise].

[Panzermahn]

Hi!!! I am new and am not sure wheter this topic has been discussed before but straight to the point.
I dont understand one thing. Why Germany have started this hopeless war against the allies. They knew that if they start war against the Chechs and Poland they will be automatically in war against france, Uk and USA . Did Hitler and his party really thing that they can win the war ? What can you say about that in puerly military point of view? Was the German army and industry comparable with these of the allies(i read that it doesn`t but may be i have missed something)? I know that the Wermacht relied on technology and speed. But however fast they are they are just a dozen of milliin army strength against half of the world. Are they crazy? What were there strategic plans in the eve of the war? pls help i will be very grateful

Hi Cyrill, that is what usually history school book taught you youngsters that WW2 was the war that the forces of Good prevailed over the forces of evil..But you should know that Germany and Japan (in the mid to late 30s) were craftily manouvered into war ever since the unjust Versailles Treaty that ended WW1. WW2 began as a political war that evolved into the biggest war ever befell on mankind.

For example, China wasn't defended by Chiang Kai Shek's Nationalists Kuomintang against Mao Tse Tung's Communists, but China in one or the other, was defended by the European fighters and soldiers of many nations, one motto during their last battle in Berlin 1945. Mao Tse Tung's forces didn't not win in China. It was the brave French volunteers of the Charlemagne Division, the tenacious Latvians of the 15th SS Latvia, the fatalistic Estonians & Hungarians, the Spaniards of the Iberian Peninsula, the freedom loving Scandinavians of Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, the ever loyal Cossacks, and the simple Tibetan shepards from the vast central Asian highlands who were defeated at Berlin and died within the ruins of the great city in order to provide an example to the future struggle against Bolshevism and Communism, the twin hydra of international pariahs.

And these two pariahs, the most shameful and hideous thing ever to come out from human civilization, were finally defeated 46 years after the defeat of forerunners of the struggle against them.

Some philosphy for thoughts for youngsters

[Doggowitz]

Pffft.. What a romatic view on the SS Volunteers and German war effort...

Nazism was at this time the greates foe and most dangerous thread to Mankind, and it turned out good that it was stamped to ashes in 1945.

Communism was a thread one can deal with and defeat it more or less "peacefully" like the USA (!) and not Nazi-Germany did.

It was the failure of Facism that boosted the Soviet Empire.

I'm just glad that it evolved like it happened... Nazism turned into a pile of rubble, Communism defeated without a world war and Western Democracy and Capitalism as the laughing winner. It is proven that Western Democracy and Capitalism survived all foes and will always prevail.

Thank God that the Soviets and Western Democracies defeated Facism and (madman of Europe) Hitler together.