At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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hienz
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At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by hienz » 21 Sep 2002 19:42

Evening all,
Any opions out there about at what point Germany lost ww2.
I'm undecided myslelf but would put it down between Stalingrad,kursk and bagration.
Regards hienz

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Edwin Meinsma
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Post by Edwin Meinsma » 21 Sep 2002 19:44

I would say on June 22th 1941, attacking the Sovietunion was a fatal error.

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Edwin Meinsma

hienz
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Post by hienz » 21 Sep 2002 19:47

Yeah i'll give that one.
Hienz

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Edwin Meinsma
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Post by Edwin Meinsma » 21 Sep 2002 19:54

Another moment which I think was fatal, was the moment the U-boat war was lost. At that point the opening of a second front was certain.

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Edwin Meinsma

Karl da Kraut
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Post by Karl da Kraut » 21 Sep 2002 20:35

I suppose the "day" Hitler developed his racist beliefs. Otherwise he could have gained massive support from the "Soviet" population if promising them the liberation of Stalin's terror and independence to the non-Russion nations.

Another guess: 7/12/41.

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Johan Elisson
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Post by Johan Elisson » 21 Sep 2002 21:33

June 22nd 1941, more philisophical, September 1st 1939. But with some luck, he could have won the war in the east, therefore, my third date will be some date i the winter 1942-1943, Stalingrad.

/Johan

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Psycho Mike
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If he had stopped at France

Post by Psycho Mike » 21 Sep 2002 21:34

I think if Hitler had stopped at France and not struck out at England and headed towards Russia he would have bought himself some time.
But I think he lost any chance of a long 1,000 year reich when he incorporated socialism into his philosophy.
Free health care, free paid by the government vacations, the first social security system, on and on- how the heck would they have kept paying for it?
The SA, which had loads of former communists in it, were mad that Hitler was siezing German Jewish owned companies and handing them over to the folks like the Krupps. And we know what happened to the SA! They wanted "workers power", yawn.
Socialism does not work. Anywhere. Not the moderate form. Not the international form. Not the national form.
Free markets my friend- that is the future.
Right now I can travel to Sweden, get their free health care, and the swedes will have to pay for it. Ha ha!
In America we tried blending socialism with capitalism, big housing projects and welfare money was provided. Finally, it took a liberal to admit that the welfare state had destroyed the Black family, and the housing projects did not, as LBJ said, "End poverty forever".
We are now tearing down that social experiment.
In France they tried to just reform the free health care system, and the unions were out in the streets!
Now the government is trying to figure out how to pay for it.
THERE IS NO WAY. Eventually it will collapse.
Hitler lost - when he accepted socialism. And that my friends was before the beer hall nonsense, Mein Kempf, etc. 8)

LZ X-ray
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Post by LZ X-ray » 21 Sep 2002 21:38

Definitely the day that Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, which they did not have to do. Even though a pact was signed with Japan, the Japanese acted unilateraly in their attack on US, British, and Dutch forces in the Pacific. Hitler could have balked at commiting Germany to war against the US, and this would have been generally viewed as perfectly justified.
Without the increased logistical support provided, and military entrance into Europe of the US, Germany would have prevailed, even with it's two-front war. The Soviets would have collapsed first, and then Britain would've exited the war from sheer exhaustion of men and materiel.

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Johan Elisson
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Post by Johan Elisson » 21 Sep 2002 21:47

Definitely the day that Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, which they did not have to do.


:? I'm sure that the Americans would have declared war on Germany anyway at some point. At some point is when they would realise that Britain alone would not stand on the Western front forever.

/Johan

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 21 Sep 2002 22:26

After Stalingrad, germany had no hope of actually winning the war as Hitler whished it. Until Kursk, however, Germany could very well have created a standstill and a cold war could have beguyn a few years sooner. After this, a western threat could have been met with much greater strength, and possible an invasion wouldn't have happened at all.

Christian

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Rob S.
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Post by Rob S. » 22 Sep 2002 00:23

May(?) 1940 when Hitler gave the order to let the BEF escape to Dunkirk.

Citadel
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Stalin and Molotov

Post by Citadel » 22 Sep 2002 00:53

Stalingrad marks the "turning point" at which the German expansion turned to defeat, but the whole failure to take the Soviets into the Axis. So , by that reckoning, it was the failure of Nov 12th 1940 when Molotov arrived.

Germany was defeated because Stalin was the only world statesman at the time more cynical, more cold and more in-tune with Hitler than he could have feared in his worst nightmare.

Barbarossa may mark the historical turning point, although in doing so it records merely the desperate acts of a cornered rat, but the defeat of Germany lay in Stalin's demands to be a senior-partner to the Axis (Via the flow of oil) - something Hitler could never, nor should ever, have accepted.

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Sam H.
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Post by Sam H. » 22 Sep 2002 00:56

I'd say Germany lost the ability to win the war when they failed to defeat the Soviet Union - December 1941.

They lost the war outright at Kursk. After Kursk, they could no longer avoid total defeat. Before Kursk, with some luck and some good strategic decisions, they could have brought the allies to the table.

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houndie
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Post by houndie » 22 Sep 2002 01:22

Barbarossa may mark the historical turning point

What do you mean? Is this supposed to be funny? If so, then :lol:
War is a matter of vital importance to the state. Hence, it is imperative that it be studied thoroughly - sun tzu
The truth of world war should be documented and it should not be treated as nazi propaganda.

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TiKi
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After the Kurskoffensive!!!

Post by TiKi » 22 Sep 2002 01:26

I believe that the war was lost definitly after the Kurskoffensive!!

Stalingrad was a big success for the soviets, thats fact!
But when the germans prepare themself for the offensive at
Kurks / Phrokorovka(?) the generally tendence was good!

The russian defence at Krusk was heavily damaged and all reinforcementtroops were involved in the fightings!!
But suddenly the axis took 2 Elite-Divisions out of the front and so the defeat was definitly!

For my grandpa was that the breaking point! He thinks that the run of history in russia may changed when the 2 Divisions stayed in the kursk-area!
So its july/august 43´

Yust my 2cents

TiKi

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