At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1276

Post by ljadw » 23 Oct 2019, 19:58

Aida1 wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 20:26
ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 19:57
Not wise to use Stolfi as a source:Stolfi used Suvorov and Carell as sources ,and everyone knows that these were only charlatans .
Mobile forces could not make it to Moscow in August 1941: this is confirmed by AGC staff.
Mobile forces could not even make it to Moscow if the Soviets were defeated,because of logistics and distances .Only small infantry units could do it, using Soviet railways .And, if the SU was defeated in July 1941, there was no need to go to Moscow.
The truth is that the fall of the SU in the summer would result in the capture of Moscow, the capture of Moscow would not result in the fall of the SU ( this is proved by the initial decision of Stalin to abandon Moscow AND to continue the war )
You are completely wrong here. Fedor von Bock wanted to attack towards Moscow in august and orders were ready for that when Hitler ordered he operation to the south which von Bock disagreed with (Fedor von Bock Herbig 1995 pp 254-255). Mobile forces could certainly reach the area around Moscow.
Accusing authors of being charlatans is your usual tactic to avoid answering them on substance.
Both Suvorov and Carrell are liars and charlatans .They write for a public with the intellect of a child of 10 years .
The Soviets were not defeated in August 1941 and an advance to Moscow ( which was not needed and a wast of time and resources ) was only possible after the Soviets were defeated and were on the run and even then the advance of mobile forces would fail . Something every layman and expert knows : for an advance additional POL was needed and there was no additional POL .

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1277

Post by Aida1 » 23 Oct 2019, 21:03

ljadw wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 19:58
Aida1 wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 20:26
ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 19:57
Not wise to use Stolfi as a source:Stolfi used Suvorov and Carell as sources ,and everyone knows that these were only charlatans .
Mobile forces could not make it to Moscow in August 1941: this is confirmed by AGC staff.
Mobile forces could not even make it to Moscow if the Soviets were defeated,because of logistics and distances .Only small infantry units could do it, using Soviet railways .And, if the SU was defeated in July 1941, there was no need to go to Moscow.
The truth is that the fall of the SU in the summer would result in the capture of Moscow, the capture of Moscow would not result in the fall of the SU ( this is proved by the initial decision of Stalin to abandon Moscow AND to continue the war )
You are completely wrong here. Fedor von Bock wanted to attack towards Moscow in august and orders were ready for that when Hitler ordered he operation to the south which von Bock disagreed with (Fedor von Bock Herbig 1995 pp 254-255). Mobile forces could certainly reach the area around Moscow.
Accusing authors of being charlatans is your usual tactic to avoid answering them on substance.
Both Suvorov and Carrell are liars and charlatans .They write for a public with the intellect of a child of 10 years .
The Soviets were not defeated in August 1941 and an advance to Moscow ( which was not needed and a wast of time and resources ) was only possible after the Soviets were defeated and were on the run and even then the advance of mobile forces would fail . Something every layman and expert knows : for an advance additional POL was needed and there was no additional POL .
Again accusations without substance and no rebuttal of specific statements in the books mentioned.
Senior German commanders like Fedor Von Bock disagree with your statement. He wanted to attack towards Moscow as is clear from his war diary. He was better placed than you to judge whether it was possible of not.


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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1278

Post by Aida1 » 23 Oct 2019, 21:08

ljadw wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 19:47
Aida1 wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 20:26
ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 19:57
Not wise to use Stolfi as a source:Stolfi used Suvorov and Carell as sources ,and everyone knows that these were only charlatans .
Mobile forces could not make it to Moscow in August 1941: this is confirmed by AGC staff.
Mobile forces could not even make it to Moscow if the Soviets were defeated,because of logistics and distances .Only small infantry units could do it, using Soviet railways .And, if the SU was defeated in July 1941, there was no need to go to Moscow.
The truth is that the fall of the SU in the summer would result in the capture of Moscow, the capture of Moscow would not result in the fall of the SU ( this is proved by the initial decision of Stalin to abandon Moscow AND to continue the war )
You are completely wrong here. Fedor von Bock wanted to attack towards Moscow in august and orders were ready for that when Hitler ordered he operation to the south which von Bock disagreed with (Fedor von Bock Herbig 1995 pp 254-255). Mobile forces could certainly reach the area around Moscow.
Accusing authors of being charlatans is your usual tactic to avoid answering them on substance.
Suvurov is a liar and a charlatan : there were no Soviet flying tanks before June 1941 .
The nazi Carrell is on the same level : I have read his three books about the war in the east who are only fantasy written for a public with the intellect of a child of 10 years .It is only pulp . Carrell said that Barbarossa was a preventive attack to forestall a Soviet attack, something which is a lie and he said also that Germany was fighting a clean war( the dead of Oradour will disagree ) and lost the war because of HItler .
That Bock wanted to attack,is irrelevant, because it does not prove that the attack could succeed ,the mobile forces from AGC could not go to Moscow .In August 1941 the Soviet forces opposite AGC were still not defeated and as long as they were not defeated and on the run, an advance to Moscow ( which was not needed ) was out of the question . And even if the Soviet forces opposing AGC were defeated,it was out of the question that mobile forces could advance to Moscow, for logistical reasons : mobile forces needed POL,and there was no POL.Only small infantry units could advance to the region east of Moscow using the Soviet railways .
I think Von Bock would know better than you. He was the expert. Where Carell is concerned you are bluffing. He writes very well. Certainly no pulp. It seems you cannot disagree with somebody without using insults.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1279

Post by ljadw » 24 Oct 2019, 09:50

The diary of AGC said that an advance to Moscow in August 1941 was out of the question.And the honesty of Bock is very questionable .When Typhoon failed ,he abandoned his men and declared himself sick,a month later he was miraculously healed.
And what Paul Schmidt has written has no scientific or even literary quality : it is only a collection of nazi propaganda,of lies ,distortions and omissions .
Why should we believe someone who claimed that the battle of Prokhorovka was one of the deciding battles of WWII,even of world history ?

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1280

Post by ljadw » 24 Oct 2019, 11:41

The desertion of Bock had one positive result: The Ostheer was delivered from the nocive presence of Guderian,who was almost immediately fired by Kluge,who said : enough is enough : that SOB must go .

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1281

Post by ljadw » 24 Oct 2019, 11:48

Aida1 wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 21:03
ljadw wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 19:58
Aida1 wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 20:26
ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 19:57
Not wise to use Stolfi as a source:Stolfi used Suvorov and Carell as sources ,and everyone knows that these were only charlatans .
Mobile forces could not make it to Moscow in August 1941: this is confirmed by AGC staff.
Mobile forces could not even make it to Moscow if the Soviets were defeated,because of logistics and distances .Only small infantry units could do it, using Soviet railways .And, if the SU was defeated in July 1941, there was no need to go to Moscow.
The truth is that the fall of the SU in the summer would result in the capture of Moscow, the capture of Moscow would not result in the fall of the SU ( this is proved by the initial decision of Stalin to abandon Moscow AND to continue the war )
You are completely wrong here. Fedor von Bock wanted to attack towards Moscow in august and orders were ready for that when Hitler ordered he operation to the south which von Bock disagreed with (Fedor von Bock Herbig 1995 pp 254-255). Mobile forces could certainly reach the area around Moscow.
Accusing authors of being charlatans is your usual tactic to avoid answering them on substance.
Both Suvorov and Carrell are liars and charlatans .They write for a public with the intellect of a child of 10 years .
The Soviets were not defeated in August 1941 and an advance to Moscow ( which was not needed and a wast of time and resources ) was only possible after the Soviets were defeated and were on the run and even then the advance of mobile forces would fail . Something every layman and expert knows : for an advance additional POL was needed and there was no additional POL .
Again accusations without substance and no rebuttal of specific statements in the books mentioned.
Senior German commanders like Fedor Von Bock disagree with your statement. He wanted to attack towards Moscow as is clear from his war diary. He was better placed than you to judge whether it was possible of not.
Or Bock lied,or he did not read the diary of his own AG.which concluded on August 22 : the armoured units are so battle-weary and worn-out that there can be no question of a mass operative mission until they have been completely replenished and repaired .

At the end of August, only 34 % of the tanks of AGC were combat ready .
Only 34 % .

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1282

Post by Aida1 » 24 Oct 2019, 15:09

ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 11:48
Aida1 wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 21:03
ljadw wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 19:58
Aida1 wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 20:26
ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 19:57
Not wise to use Stolfi as a source:Stolfi used Suvorov and Carell as sources ,and everyone knows that these were only charlatans .
Mobile forces could not make it to Moscow in August 1941: this is confirmed by AGC staff.
Mobile forces could not even make it to Moscow if the Soviets were defeated,because of logistics and distances .Only small infantry units could do it, using Soviet railways .And, if the SU was defeated in July 1941, there was no need to go to Moscow.
The truth is that the fall of the SU in the summer would result in the capture of Moscow, the capture of Moscow would not result in the fall of the SU ( this is proved by the initial decision of Stalin to abandon Moscow AND to continue the war )
You are completely wrong here. Fedor von Bock wanted to attack towards Moscow in august and orders were ready for that when Hitler ordered he operation to the south which von Bock disagreed with (Fedor von Bock Herbig 1995 pp 254-255). Mobile forces could certainly reach the area around Moscow.
Accusing authors of being charlatans is your usual tactic to avoid answering them on substance.
Both Suvorov and Carrell are liars and charlatans .They write for a public with the intellect of a child of 10 years .
The Soviets were not defeated in August 1941 and an advance to Moscow ( which was not needed and a wast of time and resources ) was only possible after the Soviets were defeated and were on the run and even then the advance of mobile forces would fail . Something every layman and expert knows : for an advance additional POL was needed and there was no additional POL .
Again accusations without substance and no rebuttal of specific statements in the books mentioned.
Senior German commanders like Fedor Von Bock disagree with your statement. He wanted to attack towards Moscow as is clear from his war diary. He was better placed than you to judge whether it was possible of not.
Or Bock lied,or he did not read the diary of his own AG.which concluded on August 22 : the armoured units are so battle-weary and worn-out that there can be no question of a mass operative mission until they have been completely replenished and repaired .

At the end of August, only 34 % of the tanks of AGC were combat ready .
Only 34 % .
Von Bock's war diary is crystal clear .Orders for the attack of the Heeresgruppe towards Moscow were ready to be transmitted to the army commands (Fedor von bock Herbig 1995 p 254) . There is no need for units to be at full strength to conduct offensive operations. Von Bock did not like to be on the defensive because he was convinced he could not hold his front (von Bock p258).Being on the defensive is harder for the infantry armies and gives the initiative to the enemy . Guderian was able to attack to the south so he could have attacked east too. Actually attacking east was easier from a logistical viewpoint.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1283

Post by Aida1 » 24 Oct 2019, 15:30

ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 09:50
The diary of AGC said that an advance to Moscow in August 1941 was out of the question.And the honesty of Bock is very questionable .When Typhoon failed ,he abandoned his men and declared himself sick,a month later he was miraculously healed.
And what Paul Schmidt has written has no scientific or even literary quality : it is only a collection of nazi propaganda,of lies ,distortions and omissions .
Why should we believe someone who claimed that the battle of Prokhorovka was one of the deciding battles of WWII,even of world history ?
This is your usual tactic to avoid talking on substance. Character assasination. Pretty nasty incorrect unsourced assertions where von Bock is concerned as he was transferred to the Füherreserve on 19.12.1941 ,ostensibly for health reasons but in reality because of disagreements with Hitler (von Bock p 19). Being asked to take leave for health reasons was one of Hitlers methods of getting rid of commanders.
Last edited by Aida1 on 24 Oct 2019, 15:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1284

Post by Aida1 » 24 Oct 2019, 15:34

ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 11:41
The desertion of Bock had one positive result: The Ostheer was delivered from the nocive presence of Guderian,who was almost immediately fired by Kluge,who said : enough is enough : that SOB must go .
Historically incorrect assertions not supported by sources as usual. The vulgar language betrays your hatred towards Guderian

corbulo
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1285

Post by corbulo » 24 Oct 2019, 16:42

Stalingrad/Kursk

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1286

Post by ljadw » 24 Oct 2019, 19:24

corbulo wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 16:42
Stalingrad/Kursk
No : September 3 1939 .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1287

Post by ljadw » 24 Oct 2019, 19:27

Aida1 wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 15:30
ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 09:50
The diary of AGC said that an advance to Moscow in August 1941 was out of the question.And the honesty of Bock is very questionable .When Typhoon failed ,he abandoned his men and declared himself sick,a month later he was miraculously healed.
And what Paul Schmidt has written has no scientific or even literary quality : it is only a collection of nazi propaganda,of lies ,distortions and omissions .
Why should we believe someone who claimed that the battle of Prokhorovka was one of the deciding battles of WWII,even of world history ?
This is your usual tactic to avoid talking on substance. Character assasination. Pretty nasty incorrect unsourced assertions where von Bock is concerned as he was transferred to the Füherreserve on 19.12.1941 ,ostensibly for health reasons but in reality because of disagreements with Hitler (von Bock p 19). Being asked to take leave for health reasons was one of Hitlers methods of getting rid of commanders.
WRONG : Bock declared himself sick, so that no one could blame him if there was a catastrophe . And Kluge should solve the problems . Less than a month later, Bock was no longer sick and was appointed OB of HGS.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1288

Post by ljadw » 24 Oct 2019, 19:33

Aida1 wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 15:34
ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 11:41
The desertion of Bock had one positive result: The Ostheer was delivered from the nocive presence of Guderian,who was almost immediately fired by Kluge,who said : enough is enough : that SOB must go .
Historically incorrect assertions not supported by sources as usual. The vulgar language betrays your hatred towards Guderian
Guderian was a nazi : when he was a POW he said that there was nothing wrong with nazism
Guderian was a coward : in Panzerleader he incessantly attack a dead colleague : Kluge
Guderian was a liar : he lied about his estate,about his war crimes, about being the creator of the panzertruppe, while it was Lutz.
Guderian was incompetent : in Panzerleader ( on the level of the Carell pulp ) he said that that there was only one thing that counted in a PzD : the number of tanks .
Guderian was insubordinate and should have been court-martialled .

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1289

Post by Aida1 » 24 Oct 2019, 20:54

ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 19:27
Aida1 wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 15:30
ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 09:50
The diary of AGC said that an advance to Moscow in August 1941 was out of the question.And the honesty of Bock is very questionable .When Typhoon failed ,he abandoned his men and declared himself sick,a month later he was miraculously healed.
And what Paul Schmidt has written has no scientific or even literary quality : it is only a collection of nazi propaganda,of lies ,distortions and omissions .
Why should we believe someone who claimed that the battle of Prokhorovka was one of the deciding battles of WWII,even of world history ?
This is your usual tactic to avoid talking on substance. Character assasination. Pretty nasty incorrect unsourced assertions where von Bock is concerned as he was transferred to the Füherreserve on 19.12.1941 ,ostensibly for health reasons but in reality because of disagreements with Hitler (von Bock p 19). Being asked to take leave for health reasons was one of Hitlers methods of getting rid of commanders.
WRONG : Bock declared himself sick, so that no one could blame him if there was a catastrophe . And Kluge should solve the problems . Less than a month later, Bock was no longer sick and was appointed OB of HGS.
Ridiculous. Von Bock and Hitler fundamentally disagreed and so Von Bock was asked to take sick leave (Von Bock Herbig 1995 p 19).

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1290

Post by Aida1 » 24 Oct 2019, 20:56

ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 19:33
Aida1 wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 15:34
ljadw wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 11:41
The desertion of Bock had one positive result: The Ostheer was delivered from the nocive presence of Guderian,who was almost immediately fired by Kluge,who said : enough is enough : that SOB must go .
Historically incorrect assertions not supported by sources as usual. The vulgar language betrays your hatred towards Guderian
Guderian was a nazi : when he was a POW he said that there was nothing wrong with nazism
Guderian was a coward : in Panzerleader he incessantly attack a dead colleague : Kluge
Guderian was a liar : he lied about his estate,about his war crimes, about being the creator of the panzertruppe, while it was Lutz.
Guderian was incompetent : in Panzerleader ( on the level of the Carell pulp ) he said that that there was only one thing that counted in a PzD : the number of tanks .
Guderian was insubordinate and should have been court-martialled .
This hateful diatribe confirms your bias. Full of incorrect statements and no source given.

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