At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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HistoryGeek2019
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 06 Nov 2019 18:57

MarkF617 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 14:11

Tactical bombing includes more than just battlefield close support. It also includes such things as interdicting reserves, destroying bridges, taking out HQs and supply depots, attacking shipping and lines of communication. Germany's medium bomber force was very capable of performing these tasks.
People often claim this, but I have yet to see cites of specific results from Germany's medium bombers that meaningfully impacted any battle. Even the Stukas were not that effective. The over 1,000 sorties against Sedan on May 13 generated something like 50 French casualties.

Airpower was greatly overrated in the early years of the war. It was a different story with the US army air force later in the war because we possessed far superior planes, and many more of them, than what the Germans had in 1940 and 1941.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 06 Nov 2019 19:04

Aida1 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 15:12
ljadw wrote:
05 Nov 2019 17:15
Aida1 wrote:
05 Nov 2019 16:22
HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
04 Nov 2019 18:39
German generals were oblivious to logistical constraints and were trained to attack, attack, attack. Withdrawing was tantamount to admitting defeat, and they couldn't stay where they were because they were being beaten by the superior Red Army in August 1941. And Moscow seemed like a shiny object that supposedly would end all resistance if captured (this had been advocated in the First World War as well when the Bolsheviks were inciting resistance in German occupied territories under Brest-Litovsk). So of course the generals would say "Attack toward Moscow, our superior German soldiers will prevail!"
Very simplistic. If the German army was beaten in august, it is very strange that it obtained the successes it did in september and october.
Successes which resulted in failure .
Nonense. Successes do not result in failure. There was failure to totally defeat the red army despite the successes.
The aim was to defeat totally the Red Army, this did not happen , thus it was a failure .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 06 Nov 2019 19:06

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 18:57
MarkF617 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 14:11

Tactical bombing includes more than just battlefield close support. It also includes such things as interdicting reserves, destroying bridges, taking out HQs and supply depots, attacking shipping and lines of communication. Germany's medium bomber force was very capable of performing these tasks.
People often claim this, but I have yet to see cites of specific results from Germany's medium bombers that meaningfully impacted any battle. Even the Stukas were not that effective. The over 1,000 sorties against Sedan on May 13 generated something like 50 French casualties.

Airpower was greatly overrated in the early years of the war. It was a different story with the US army air force later in the war because we possessed far superior planes, and many more of them, than what the Germans had in 1940 and 1941.
The aim of the sorties against Sedan was to make possible the crossing of the Meuse, not to kill/wound French soldiers .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 06 Nov 2019 19:17

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 13:18
The Luftewaffe started the Battle of France with 1600 medium bombers. These are strategic weapons. They are of zero value on the battlefield because they are too inaccurate not to hit your own troops.

The tactical bombers (Stukas) were a tiny minority in the Luftewaffe and only continued in existence because Richthofen saw their value in the Spanish Civil War. But Goering was in charge and wanted a shiny fleet of strategic medium bombers that would win the war on their own by pulverizing enemy cities and industry.

These are facts. "The Luftewaffe was a tactical air force" is a popular myth. Read Adam Tooze and the link I gave above.
The Ju 88 was a tactical high speed medium bomber the production of which started in 1940 with an average monthly production of 150 .
Production in 1940 : 1816 ,in 1941 :2146,in 1942 :2270, in 1943 :2160, in 1944 :664 . The bomber could carry only a small load of bombs .
There were 11 variants in the JU 88 production,some 4000 were built as night fighter/fighter bomber and 1300 as rec aircraft .The importance of the Stukas was essential for Fall Gelb and Fall Rot .
The LW was a tactical airforce, as was the Soviet airforce and as was BC til 1942.
The Douhet doctrine proved to be only hollow phrases and the slogan : the bomber will always pass proved to be wrong :without the protection of fighters, bombers were only sitting ducks .
Last edited by ljadw on 06 Nov 2019 19:24, edited 1 time in total.

Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 06 Nov 2019 19:23

ljadw wrote:
06 Nov 2019 19:04
Aida1 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 15:12
ljadw wrote:
05 Nov 2019 17:15
Aida1 wrote:
05 Nov 2019 16:22
HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
04 Nov 2019 18:39
German generals were oblivious to logistical constraints and were trained to attack, attack, attack. Withdrawing was tantamount to admitting defeat, and they couldn't stay where they were because they were being beaten by the superior Red Army in August 1941. And Moscow seemed like a shiny object that supposedly would end all resistance if captured (this had been advocated in the First World War as well when the Bolsheviks were inciting resistance in German occupied territories under Brest-Litovsk). So of course the generals would say "Attack toward Moscow, our superior German soldiers will prevail!"
Very simplistic. If the German army was beaten in august, it is very strange that it obtained the successes it did in september and october.
Successes which resulted in failure .
Nonense. Successes do not result in failure. There was failure to totally defeat the red army despite the successes.
The aim was to defeat totally the Red Army, this did not happen , thus it was a failure .
The operations as such were successful but the red army was simply difficult to defeat entirely.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 06 Nov 2019 19:27

The aim was not reached, thus it was a failure .
The red army was not difficult to eliminate,it was impossible to eliminate the red army . The SU could not be defeated. By nobody .

Paul Lakowski
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Paul Lakowski » 29 Nov 2019 05:03

ljadw wrote:
06 Nov 2019 19:27
The aim was not reached, thus it was a failure .
The red army was not difficult to eliminate,it was impossible to eliminate the red army . The SU could not be defeated. By nobody .

Sounds like a nice little fantasy for commies around the world. Nothing and no one is indestructible.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 29 Nov 2019 06:32

Paul Lakowski wrote:
29 Nov 2019 05:03
ljadw wrote:
06 Nov 2019 19:27
The aim was not reached, thus it was a failure .
The red army was not difficult to eliminate,it was impossible to eliminate the red army . The SU could not be defeated. By nobody .

Sounds like a nice little fantasy for commies around the world. Nothing and no one is indestructible.
Germany had the strongest army in the world in 1941 and it could not defeat the SU .
Conclusion : no one else could do it .In 1941 the SU was invincible . It was even so in 1945 in a conventional war .

Peter89
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Peter89 » 29 Nov 2019 07:11

ljadw wrote:
29 Nov 2019 06:32
Paul Lakowski wrote:
29 Nov 2019 05:03
ljadw wrote:
06 Nov 2019 19:27
The aim was not reached, thus it was a failure .
The red army was not difficult to eliminate,it was impossible to eliminate the red army . The SU could not be defeated. By nobody .

Sounds like a nice little fantasy for commies around the world. Nothing and no one is indestructible.
Germany had the strongest army in the world in 1941 and it could not defeat the SU .
Conclusion : no one else could do it .In 1941 the SU was invincible . It was even so in 1945 in a conventional war .
You can't really believe that ljdaw.

Germany didn't have the strongest army (air force and navy included) in 1941, nor did it have the strongest warmaking potential.

The US and the British Empire were the strongest powers in the world. The fact that they could reign with a relatively small standing army, it just proves their efficiency.

The US produced more aircraft than the others combined, and carried the bulk of the burden of the war in industrial terms.

No country or person is invincible. Even if a country is undoubtedly the strongest one, it also has to be stronger than the rest of the world combined, etc. No such thing ever existed. Even the US today is not invincible: it needs allies and international relations to exact its leading position. And the SU didn't even have the strongest army or economy / society in 1941.

But I believe you know all of this already, I am kinda surprised by your point.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 29 Nov 2019 09:22

The fact is that the WM was the strongest military force on earth in 1941 .US were still at peace and were building an army . Britain was unable to defeat Germany in 1941 .
To be invincible in 1941, the SU did not need to have the strongest army or economy .
Germany attacked the SU with 3 million men . And failed . No other country on earth was able to attack the SU with 3 million men in 1941 .If Germany was unable to defeat the SU in 1941, no other country could do this in 1941 .
The SU had not to be stronger than the rest of the world as the rest of the world would not attack the SU in 1941 .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 29 Nov 2019 09:29

I specified 1941 . I also said that in 1941 no one could defeat the SU . I did not say that the SU had the offensive power to defeat all other countries in the world .
That the US needs allies to conserve its leading role in the world, does not mean that the US are not invincible : they are protected by 2 oceans and no country can conquer them .Which means that they are invincible . China also is invincible : no country can conquer China,but that does not mean that China can defeat all its neighbours or defeat the US .

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MarkF617
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by MarkF617 » 29 Nov 2019 13:53

The over 1,000 sorties against Sedan on May 13 generated something like 50 French casualties./quote]

Tactical bombing is mostly not about killing the enemy but in disrupting them and making it harder for them to fight. Take out a bridge and a regiment of tanks could be held up for hours, bomb a runway and a wing of bombers are grounded, take out fuel and ammunition suplies and enemy units could be unable to operate to it's full potential. All of this is highly desirable and all would cause few enemy casualties.

Thanks

Matk.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.

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Yuri
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Yuri » 01 Dec 2019 20:37

Paul Lakowski wrote:
29 Nov 2019 05:03
ljadw wrote:
06 Nov 2019 19:27
The aim was not reached, thus it was a failure .
The red army was not difficult to eliminate,it was impossible to eliminate the red army . The SU could not be defeated. By nobody .

Sounds like a nice little fantasy for commies around the world.
Alas, as would this not was bitterly and notorious listen (read) to all anti-Soviets, but this truth.
The power of the state,- that is, the entirety of the material, intellectual and spiritual forces of the people, the army and the government, - is determined by their ability to endure defeat and win.
No other state has suffered such cruel defeats and achieved such great victories. It is a OTL-fact and no ATL is unable to refute it.

Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 02 Dec 2019 09:44

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 18:57
MarkF617 wrote:
06 Nov 2019 14:11

Tactical bombing includes more than just battlefield close support. It also includes such things as interdicting reserves, destroying bridges, taking out HQs and supply depots, attacking shipping and lines of communication. Germany's medium bomber force was very capable of performing these tasks.
People often claim this, but I have yet to see cites of specific results from Germany's medium bombers that meaningfully impacted any battle. Even the Stukas were not that effective. The over 1,000 sorties against Sedan on May 13 generated something like 50 French casualties.

Airpower was greatly overrated in the early years of the war. It was a different story with the US army air force later in the war because we possessed far superior planes, and many more of them, than what the Germans had in 1940 and 1941.
This is extremely simplistic and -not surprisingly, no source is given.

Peter89
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Peter89 » 02 Dec 2019 09:48

ljadw wrote:
29 Nov 2019 09:29
I specified 1941 . I also said that in 1941 no one could defeat the SU . I did not say that the SU had the offensive power to defeat all other countries in the world .
That the US needs allies to conserve its leading role in the world, does not mean that the US are not invincible : they are protected by 2 oceans and no country can conquer them .Which means that they are invincible . China also is invincible : no country can conquer China,but that does not mean that China can defeat all its neighbours or defeat the US .
A country can be defeated by various means, including continental blockade (WW1), arms race (cold war), international isolation (Bismarck's strategy against France), supporting a civil war (like Germans with Lenin against Imperial Russia). The most effective way to defeat a communist regime is usually about playing on its internal weakness. It almost never pays off to attack it (Vietnam, Korea, SU). So these countries are and were not invincible.

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