At what point did Germany lose WW2?

[gebhk]

Um, I appreciate IJADW that you consider your opinion to be the only valid proof on any subject and everything that does not agree with your opinion to be lies, so this is not to you. Pleased don't trouble yourself to respond, therefore. For the rest of us, this is a hugely complex issue and any statements beginning 'the Ukrainians thought, wanted etc' are going to be a nonsense because there were as many opinions as there were Ukrainians - and that is before we even get into which Ukrainians we are talking about. We will never even know, without the aid of a time machine and a handy Mori poll, what the majority thought on any given subject let alone what they would have done about it in reality, had the opportunity presented itself. The fact is there was no such opportunity and not giving them and the other subject nations of the USSR such an opportunity was a classic Hitler own goal. Of course the own goal was unavoidable because the loopy ideology that drove him did not allow it - the same ideology that drove the invasion in the first place. Thus if AH had been sane enough to realise he could not invade the USSR successfully without the support of a goodly chunk of its population, he would probably have been sane enough not to invade it in the first place.

Incidentally the issue of how many Ukrainians fought in the Red Army is a huge 'so what? They had no more choice in it than the large number of Poles who fought in the WH. I would bet monkey nuts to dollars, also, that avoiding death through starvation in a POW camp was a far more potent recruiting carrot for the RONA and Vlasov's Legion than the promise of fighting against the evils of communism.

[ljadw]

Um, I appreciate IJADW that you consider your opinion to be the only valid proof on any subject and everything that does not agree with yout opinion to be lies, so this is not to you. Pleased don't trouble yourself to respond, therefore. For the rest of us, this is a hugely complex issue and any statements beginning 'the Ukrainians thought, wanted etc' are going to be a nonsense because there were as many opinions as there were Ukrainians. We will never even know, without the aid of a time machine and a handy Mori poll, what the majority thought on any given subject let alone what they would have done about it in reality, had the opportunity presented itself. The fact is there was no such opportunity and not giving them and the other subject nations of the USSR such an opportunity was a classic Hitler own goal. Of course the own goal was unavoidable because the loopy ideology that drove him did not allow it - the same ideology that drove the invasion in the first place. Thus if AH had been sane enough to realise he could not invade the USSR successfully without the support of a goodly chunk of its population, he would probably have been sane enough not to invade it in the first place.

Incidentally the issue of how many Ukrainians fought in the Red Army is a huge 'so what? They had no more choice in it than the large number of Poles who fought in the WH. I would bet monkey nuts to dollars, also, that avoiding death through starvation in a POW camp was a far more potent recruiting carrot for the RONA and Vlasov's Legion than the promise of fighting against the evils of communism.

1 Barbarossa in 1941 had nothing to do with the Nazi ideology
2 Hitler convinced himself that the population of the USSR would revolt against their masters and he attacked the USSR because he saw no other option to win,or not defeat the war against Britain .
This is the opinion of the German historian Christian Gerlach and this is supported by the declarations from Hitler himself in 1940 and 1941 .
3 Vlasov's Legion was not composed of Ukrainians .
4 The fact that more Ukrainians fought in the Red Army than in the RONA indicates that more Ukrainians were hostile to Hitler than supporting Hitler .Besides, there are no proofs that a bigger percent of the Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army were taken prisoner than the percent of the non Ukrainians in the Red Army . Thus the claim from post 2036 is unproved .
5 The majority of the Soviet population (including the non Russians ) was neutral about Soviet communism ,as it happens in almost all regimes, and a minority was hostile to it and an other minority was supporting the regime .
The majority fought, not for communism, but against the Germans who invaded their country .The same happened twice in Afghanistan, also in Iran, Iraq, Syria...
If an Ukrainian fought against the Germans, that does not mean that he was pro Stalin, if he fought against the Soviets ( a minority living in Polish Ukraine ) that does not mean that he supported Hitler .
Besides the OUN fought not only against the Soviets, but also against the Poles and killed as many Jews as possible .
Last point : Ukrainian nationalists killed in 1918 the German commander in the East :FM von Eichhorn . At least,that was the opinion of Himmler who distrusted the Ukrainians .

[gebhk]

The fact that more Ukrainians fought in the Red Army than in the RONA indicates that more Ukrainians were hostile to Hitler than supporting Hitler

Nope, all it indicates is that more Ukrainians were conscripted into the Red army than into the WH. Who they were hostile to, if anyone, we will never know. As for the rest of it, my opening comments apply. Just because you think people thought something is not even evidence, let alone proof.

[KDF33]

As for the rest of it, my opening comments apply. Just because you think people thought something is not even evidence, let alone proof.

Well, in fairness ljadw's epistemology is solipsism.

[Aida1]

The fact that more Ukrainians fought in the Red Army than in the RONA indicates that more Ukrainians were hostile to Hitler than supporting Hitler

Nope, all it proves is that more Ukrainians were conscripted into the Red army than into the WH. Who they were hostile to, if anyone, we will never know. As for the rest of it, my opening comments apply. Just because you think people thought something is not even evidence, let alone proof.

Ljadw never thinks before he spews out nonsense.

[Aida1]

Um, I appreciate IJADW that you consider your opinion to be the only valid proof on any subject and everything that does not agree with yout opinion to be lies, so this is not to you. Pleased don't trouble yourself to respond, therefore. For the rest of us, this is a hugely complex issue and any statements beginning 'the Ukrainians thought, wanted etc' are going to be a nonsense because there were as many opinions as there were Ukrainians. We will never even know, without the aid of a time machine and a handy Mori poll, what the majority thought on any given subject let alone what they would have done about it in reality, had the opportunity presented itself. The fact is there was no such opportunity and not giving them and the other subject nations of the USSR such an opportunity was a classic Hitler own goal. Of course the own goal was unavoidable because the loopy ideology that drove him did not allow it - the same ideology that drove the invasion in the first place. Thus if AH had been sane enough to realise he could not invade the USSR successfully without the support of a goodly chunk of its population, he would probably have been sane enough not to invade it in the first place.

Incidentally the issue of how many Ukrainians fought in the Red Army is a huge 'so what? They had no more choice in it than the large number of Poles who fought in the WH. I would bet monkey nuts to dollars, also, that avoiding death through starvation in a POW camp was a far more potent recruiting carrot for the RONA and Vlasov's Legion than the promise of fighting against the evils of communism.

1 Barbarossa in 1941 had nothing to do with the Nazi ideology

Your strange personal opInion again.