At what point did Germany lose WW2?

[ljadw]

Normally your arguments are convincing,but this time :not .Because we disagree about the definition of oil shortage (if there is such one),and about the essential tasks of the RM,which ,IMHO,are depending on the global military situation,and,are imposed,not by the naval staff,but by the political leadership,following the military situation .
To give one exemple :King received the order to escort and protect the Atlantic convoys against the UBoats,if there was no UBoat danger1)he would not receive this order 2)he would not receive the fuel to execute this order 3)he would receive less fuel.But point 3 would not mean that there would be an oil shortage .
Oil shortage does not depend on the amount of oil you receive:you can have a shortage if you receive more oil,and no shortage,if you receive less oil.
Saying that in WWII,there was a shortage of oil for the civilians in Britain ,is wrong :there was enough oil,priorities were shifted:the military got more,the civilians:less
This applies for a lot of things .
In 1936,Italy imported 301000 ton of oil,in 1941 764000(from Romania),in 1940 342000 from Romania .
Can we draw any conclusions ? IMHO: not

[mescal]

Oil shortage does not depend on the amount of oil you receive:you can have a shortage if you receive more oil,and no shortage,if you receive less oil.

On this we agree.
But from mid-1942, there was an absolute shortage. It prevented the Regia Marina to fulfill even most basic missions.

The example here is Roma, of which mention was made above :
The following quotes from Bagnasco & De Toro's The Littorio Class (p229) makes it clear :

Following a period of trials, test and gunnery exercises in Trieste, most of which were carried out while moored in the Bay of Muggia[...]

=> work-up usually done underway was here done at anchor for a good part, for want of oil.

[during transit from Trieste to Taranto,] while crossing the Otranto Channel, Roma conducted machinery trials which had not previously been held because of fuel considerations [...]

The trials were run at progressively increasing speeds [...] four hours at 80% total power and one hour at full power instead of the four hours called for by contract

It's thus quite clear that fuel shortage had extremely strong effects. Even their newest battleship could not be thoroughly tested for want of oil.

The same reference also deals with the impact of oil shortage during Torch :

[On 5th November, Supermarina] also warned that the transfer [of the 9th battleship division from Taranto to Naples] could not be effected before 12 november and that because of the fuel shortage and action at sea by the major units would not be possible until the last ten days of the month - and even then not by all of them

The last part is telling : with all forces the Regia Marina had a (very) small chance to interfere with the landings in Algeria. With only part of its strength, it would only have been a death ride.

Quotes to a similar effect could be multiplied almost ad infinitum. All point to the fact that after mid-1942, oil shortage was the critical factor of curtailment of the Regia Marina'a activity.

[nebelwerferXXX]

In 1936, Italy imported 301,000 tons of oil in 1941, 764,000, (from Romania) in 1940, 342,000 from Romania.

Not enough to moved the 72 divisions of the Italian Army.

[nebelwerferXXX]

1st defeat: Battle of Britain - Luftwaffe
2nd defeat: the sinking of the Bismarck - KM
3rd defeat: the battle of Moscow - Army

[ljadw]

Oil shortage does not depend on the amount of oil you receive:you can have a shortage if you receive more oil,and no shortage,if you receive less oil.

On this we agree.
But from mid-1942, there was an absolute shortage. It prevented the Regia Marina to fulfill even most basic missions.

The example here is Roma, of which mention was made above :
The following quotes from Bagnasco & De Toro's The Littorio Class (p229) makes it clear :

Following a period of trials, test and gunnery exercises in Trieste, most of which were carried out while moored in the Bay of Muggia[...]

=> work-up usually done underway was here done at anchor for a good part, for want of oil.

[during transit from Trieste to Taranto,] while crossing the Otranto Channel, Roma conducted machinery trials which had not previously been held because of fuel considerations [...]

The trials were run at progressively increasing speeds [...] four hours at 80% total power and one hour at full power instead of the four hours called for by contract

It's thus quite clear that fuel shortage had extremely strong effects. Even their newest battleship could not be thoroughly tested for want of oil.

The same reference also deals with the impact of oil shortage during Torch :

[On 5th November, Supermarina] also warned that the transfer [of the 9th battleship division from Taranto to Naples] could not be effected before 12 november and that because of the fuel shortage and action at sea by the major units would not be possible until the last ten days of the month - and even then not by all of them

The last part is telling : with all forces the Regia Marina had a (very) small chance to interfere with the landings in Algeria. With only part of its strength, it would only have been a death ride.

Quotes to a similar effect could be multiplied almost ad infinitum. All point to the fact that after mid-1942, oil shortage was the critical factor of curtailment of the Regia Marina'a activity.

Well,we have to agree that we disagree about the mission of the RM.

[ljadw]

In 1936, Italy imported 301,000 tons of oil in 1941, 764,000, (from Romania) in 1940, 342,000 from Romania.

Not enough to moved the 72 divisions of the Italian Army.

And,why should any one want to move these 72 divisions,and to which country and to do what ?

[ljadw]

1st defeat: Battle of Britain - Luftwaffe
2nd defeat: the sinking of the Bismarck - KM
3rd defeat: the battle of Moscow - Army

IMHO,you are exaggerating the importance of these 3 setbacks .

[bf109 emil]

Sept. 1 1939...Germany had some victories and gains, but having never won WW2, IMHO the first day was the point she lost WW2.

[steverodgers801]

a shortage of oil existed if the available oil is less then what was needed for operations. SInce Germany and Italy could do all they wanted do there was a shortage of oil.

[Jovialmadness]

9/1/39. I know it sounds cryptic but with Hitler running the show there was no chance of victory. His thought process was ingenious and self destructive. His ambition was like a connected chain of dynamite with a fuse burning behind the last placed stick.

If you want to know the day it all went downhill then that's easy in my opinion. Battle of Britain defeat and Sea Lion being called off. The inability to secure at least one front was the beginning of the end I believe.

[Marcus]

A post by ljadw containing little but personal remarks was removed along with a now unnecessary reply.

/Marcus

[Marcus]

A post by Danubia containing anti-semitic remarks was removed.

/Marcus

[Marcus]

A additional post by Danubia was removed.

/Marcus

[KDF33]

I'd offer two possibilities:

1. The planning and preparation phase of Barbarossa, albeit not it's execution;

2. The planning and preparation phase of Blau, as well as it's execution.

[Adibach]

The down fall of Germany was when Hitler ordered his tanks to hilt before reaching Dunkirk ..the British Army had time to retreat..also no going through with the invasion of Great Britten... In the end Germany had a war on two fronts, which was there down fall