At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 07 Jan 2019 16:03

AriX wrote:
07 Jan 2019 14:59
I think Battle over Britain was that point. If GB fall, soviets would fight without american aid. No powder, no explosives, ni avgas, no trucks, no..etc.
It is 5% of alternatives to win. For example, wrote already, Germans had all opportunities to take Moscow in July, 1941. Hitler did not resolve.

Globalization41
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Globalization41 » 07 Jan 2019 16:06

Germany effectively lost WWII when Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941. If he had not declared war, Congress would have diverted the main U.S. war effort toward Japan. Many in Congress were anti-Soviet. They would not have voted a blank check for the European War. Hitler and Stalin would have stalemated. … War with the U.S. opened up other fronts such as Italy, France, supply, and strategic bombing. Without all that, Germany might have slowed the Russian 1944 Summer offensive. There would have been more resources available for the Germans and less U.S. supplies for the Red Army. Would the Soviets have been able to make it to Berlin without the other fronts facilitated by U.S. wealth creation? … Hitler would most likely have been bumped off. The German generals on their own might have set up a better defensive position. A demarcation line somewhere between Warsaw and Moscow eventually might have been agreed to.

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jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 07 Jan 2019 16:09

Globalization41 wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:06
Germany effectively lost WWII when Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941.
This point does not consider fighting. Tanks, artillery, infantry...

AriX
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by AriX » 07 Jan 2019 18:24

Germans had all opportunities to take Moscow in July, 1941. Hitler did not resolve.
Not so simple.If AG Center didnt push its armoured units on East Ukraine, soviets had oportunities to flank it.
Germany effectively lost WWII when Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941. If he had not declared war, Congress would have diverted the main U.S. war effort toward Japan.
I agrew with you. Still, US could search for casus belli if GB start to lose it positions.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Hanny » 07 Jan 2019 18:46

jesk wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:09
Globalization41 wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:06
Germany effectively lost WWII when Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941.
This point does not consider fighting. Tanks, artillery, infantry...
Because its not relevant to his point. Politicaly the action makes the force imbalance arrayed against Germany insurmountable.
Last edited by Hanny on 07 Jan 2019 19:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Globalization41
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Globalization41 » 07 Jan 2019 18:52

Without the U.S. in the war, Germany would have had more tanks, troops, artillery, planes, & ammo while the Red Army would have had less. Supplies sent by the U.S. to Russia would have been assigned to Japan. … Ammo factories not targeted by strategic bombing would have supplied more tanks and bombs for Germany. The German Air Force would have been more concentrated on the Eastern Front instead of being dispersed in Italy and France defending against strategic bombing. … The Red Army launched the biggest land offensive ever known to mankind in the Summer of '44. It took nine months to reach Berlin. … The U.S. in general treated POWs more humanely and kindly than the Russians did. Consequently, hundreds of thousands of Germans surrendered to the Anglo-American Allies. Germans on the Eastern Front were more likely to fight to the death. … If the question was, At what point after December 11, 1941, did Germany lose the war?, then there would be no answer. The war was already lost at any given time afterward. F.D.R. from Day 1 intended for unconditional surrender. Before December 11, 1941, Roosevelt's hands were tied by Congress. … The ungrateful Stalin hated the Allies, but he had no choice but to accept their generosity. The Soviets could not have reached Berlin without Hitler's declaration of war on America.

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jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 07 Jan 2019 19:46

Hanny wrote:
07 Jan 2019 18:46
jesk wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:09
Globalization41 wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:06
Germany effectively lost WWII when Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941.
This point does not consider fighting. Tanks, artillery, infantry...
Because its not relevant to his point. Politicaly the action makes the force imbalance arrayed against Germany insurmountable.
So this point is wrong. Hitler made hundreds of mistakes in military area and only therefore Germany lost war.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Hanny » 07 Jan 2019 19:59

No Jesk, this point is correct. Wars are won by the material balance of resources, and the political will to use them, the efficiency rate of use of those resources in pursuit of the political aims of the governments involved.

Germany could have played a perfect military hand in ww2, and it still would not win, the imbalance of resources with the entry of USA was insurmountable.

When Japan bombed PH and US declared war, Ah asked his staff where PH was, no one could find out for him, an imbalance of ability that was dwarfed by the resopurce power of the USA, now aligned on defeating the allies of japan with no conditions, including the use of nukes ona militarily dedfeated enemy.
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 07 Jan 2019 20:15

Hanny wrote:
07 Jan 2019 19:59
No Jesk, this point is correct. Wars are won by the material balance of resources, and the political will to use them, the efficiency rate of use of those resources in pursuit of the political aims of the governments involved.

Germany could have played a perfect military hand in ww2, and it still would not win, the imbalance of resources with the entry of USA was insurmountable.

When Japan bombed PH and US declared war, Ah asked his staff where PH was, no one could find out for him, an imbalance of ability that was dwarfed by the resopurce power of the USA, now aligned on defeating the allies of japan with no conditions, including the use of nukes ona militarily dedfeated enemy.
Your opinion is absurd. On July 10, 1941 Germans were in 15 km from Kiev and could take it. Leningrad and Moscow did not fall prey of Hitler in July too only because he did not want. The 11th army for certain would be enough for capture of the Caucasus in 1941, but Hitler for some reason used it in the Crimea. 5.5 million Soviet prisoners in the first year, with a large number of the mistakes made by Germans, testify to a possibility of achievement of a victory by Germany in the military way.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Hanny » 07 Jan 2019 20:25

My opinion, is based on historical facts, unlike your post.
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jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 07 Jan 2019 20:36

Hanny wrote:
07 Jan 2019 20:25
My opinion, is based on historical facts, unlike your post.
Your opinion from illiteracy and misunderstanding of military history. Falaise pocket 1000% work of Hitler. Bagration 1 million percent! 2 defeat without Hitler would never have happened!
It is amusing, my posts criticize, but cannot show where I am not right. All answer consists: no jesk. Why not?

Globalization41
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Globalization41 » 07 Jan 2019 23:12

Instead of, At what point did Germany lose WWII?, how about, What were Hitler's worst battlefield blunders?

Globalization41.

jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 08 Jan 2019 09:09

Globalization41 wrote:
07 Jan 2019 23:12
Instead of, At what point did Germany lose WWII?, how about, What were Hitler's worst battlefield blunders?
The worst mistake in my opinion was the rejection of the new “Barbarossa” in 1942. Hitler said, only Army Group “South” can attack. And it is strange. In the south there are 45 divisions, in the central group 70. AGN and AGC stood in line for the offensive.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Hanny » 08 Jan 2019 12:02

jesk wrote:
07 Jan 2019 20:15
Your opinion from illiteracy and misunderstanding of military history. Falaise pocket 1000% work of Hitler. Bagration 1 million percent! 2 defeat without Hitler would never have happened!
It is amusing, my posts criticize, but cannot show where I am not right. All answer consists: no jesk. Why not?
Wars are won by the material balance of resources, and the political will to use them, the efficiency rate of use of those resources in pursuit of the political aims of the governments involved.

With a handfull of exceptions that opinion holds true for any war ever fought. With respect to WW2 its established fact that by declaring war on the USA, AH changed the ratio of resources beyond Germanys ability to compete. See Harrison Acounting for war, R Overy Why the Allies won etc.

July 41 is before USA enters the war, please pay attention to the question. However, logisticaly taking Kiev was what was possible and taking lenningrad and Moscow were not logistiocaly viable. Thats why it turned out that way. See R Crevald supplying war, Murray strategy for defeat. Germany had a shot at taking Moscow/lenningrad in 41, both failled due to logistical inability to supply such efforts. Logistics heads told that to AH before he gave the go order. See above books for cite. So while militarily they had a chance taking Moscow, Stalin had already decided not to acept peace but to fight on in that eentuality so it would have only made the logistical problem worse not better for Germany.

More importantly is that the German drive was defeated by the time AH politicaly brough the USA against the Germany. So Germany had already lost the war in the East by the time the US was in the war. Only how long and how much cost remained to be found out. SU was free to bring in the Siberian forces due to AH mistake.

Falaise/Bagration in 44, only you Jesk think that Germany could win the war in 44, and that both were the result of one mans influence. Btw you dont understand how maths works, please attend a maths class at school.
jesk wrote:
07 Jan 2019 20:15
The worst mistake in my opinion was the rejection of the new “Barbarossa” in 1942. Hitler said, only Army Group “South” can attack. And it is strange. In the south there are 45 divisions, in the central group 70. AGN and AGC stood in line for the offensive.
In Jan 42 only 15% of the LW 100,000 MTV were in operation.By March 42 33% of the Heer in the East had been lost, that started the Invasion, not counting those on the sick list, AFV losses ran to 100% of start numbers with 873 replacement. March 30th 140 combat ready AFV was all there was. A report by OKH states that of 162 divisions in the East 8 were suitable for offensive operations,3 could be brought up to full offensive capacity after a rest,47 could perform limited offensive operationms.The rest suitable only for defensive operations. AGN and AGC lost practicly all its transport, which went to AGS, thus 2 AG were limited to defensive operations only due to logistical contraints. This re organization, including paraticaly all replacemnts going to AGS, gave AGS 80% of its TOE at the expense of the other AGs.

At the beginning of February 1942, Hitler’s Minister of Armaments Fritz Todt was warning that Germany could not hope to keep pace even with the Soviet Union, let alone with the British Empire and the United States as well. Each of these three enemy powers was out-producing Germany on its own: together their economic strength was unmatchable.

Please read a book that explains why things turn out the way they do, rather than describe what turns out, untill you do, your childlike understanding of history will remain just that.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Nautilus » 08 Jan 2019 13:12

Globalization41 wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:06
Germany effectively lost WWII when Hitler declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941. If he had not declared war, Congress would have diverted the main U.S. war effort toward Japan.
The chain of supplies to Britain had started in September 1939. Lend-Lease got signed into law in March 1941.

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