Staff Officer Questions.....

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Ezboard

Staff Officer Questions.....

Post by Ezboard » 30 Sep 2002 20:40

ww2mcm
Member
Posts: 35
(2/26/02 8:45:38 pm)
Reply Staff Officer Questions.....
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Hey,
Im looking for the duties and full meaning of these positions held in a division.
O1
O2
O3
Ib - 2 General Staff Officer (Quartemaster?)
Ic
IIb
IN
III
IVa
IVb
V Tr.Ing.
W.u.G
Wa MUn
VI
Graber-Officer
O4
t.F.K.
Kfz.Sachbearbeiter
Thanks for any help on these.....Mike.....

ChristophA
Member

Posts: 83
(2/26/02 10:10:38 pm)
Reply
Re: Staff Officer Questions.....
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Hello Mike!

O1 - Erster Ordonanzoffizier - writes the war diary, maps and other documents
O2 - Zweiter Ordonanzoffizier - accompanies the Ib in organization of the supply organization
O3 - Dritter Ordonanzoffizier - supports the Ic
Ib - 2.Generalstabsoffizier "Quartiermeister" manages the supply and transport for the division
Ic - 3.Generalstabsoffizier - Intelligence officer
IIb - responsible for NCO and men personnel, and the bureaus of the DivStab.
IN - never heard -
IVa - under Ib for food, uniforms, equipment supply out of the country
III - Kriegsgericht
IVb - Divisionsarzt commander of the San.Abt.
V - Truppeningenieur
W.u.G. - Waffen und Geräteoffizier is under the Ib
Wa Mun - Waffen-Munitions Offizier
Graber-officer - whats that???
O4 - don´t know that there was a O4
t.F.K. - don´t know this in relation with staff officers
Kfz.Sachbearbeiter - responsible for vehicles and related tasks

hope this helps,
Christoph


ww2mcm
Member
Posts: 36
(2/27/02 4:38:57 am)
Reply Re: Staff Officer Questions.....
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Thank you very much Christopher......Mike........

Michael Dorosh
Member

Posts: 88
(2/27/02 5:47:52 am)
Reply Re: Staff Officer Questions.....
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members.shaw.ca/grossdeut...ob1942.htm has a similar listing with a little more detail - I haven't had a chance to finish the entire page, so this is a sneak peak.

Edited by: Michael Dorosh at: 2/27/02 5:49:14 am

glenn2438
New Member
Posts: 1
(2/27/02 7:06:53 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
IVB
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Hi Michael,

I like the way you have done that - congratulations. Can I suggest that the IVB would have been a Wehrmachtbeamte of the Intendantur Branch and would have consequently worn the insignia as such and not the white Waffenfarbe. The IIB is the assistant divisional adjutant and not the IVB.

Regards
Glenn

glenn2438
New Member
Posts: 2
(2/27/02 7:08:12 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
IVA
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Sorry I meant IVa!

Glenn

Michael Dorosh
Member

Posts: 91
(2/27/02 7:59:11 pm)
Reply Re: IVA
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Glenn, I was wondering about the Beamten; I do believe that Buchner says as much; thanks for the feedback - I will make the changes you suggest!

Michael Dorosh
Member

Posts: 92
(2/27/02 8:05:55 pm)
Reply Re: IVA
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Oh...any idea what grade of paymaster a division would have?

ww2mcm
Member
Posts: 37
(2/27/02 8:28:07 pm)
Reply Re: IVA
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Thanks to all............Mike.

tyskaorden
Member

Posts: 98
(2/27/02 8:28:27 pm)
Reply Gräber-offizier, Pay-master of a Division
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Since Gräber is the plural of the German word Grab which means Grave. I suppose this Officer had the grim task of overseeing the burial of fallen soldiers.

Michael, as for a Pay-Master of a Division I would think he would be a Oberfeldzahlmeister (Colonel) or a Oberstabzahlmeister (Lieutenant-Colonel or Major).

Best regards,
Marcus Karlsson

glenn2438
New Member
Posts: 3
(2/27/02 8:42:53 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
IVa
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Michael,

if you mean the IVa at Divisional Headquarters from looking at various divisional orbats they appear to be rank ranged from Intendantur-Assessor (Captain) to Intendanturrat (Major). Presumably following the 1944 transfer of these officials to the status of officers in the TSD (Special Troop Service or Truppensonderdienst) they would have then held the rank of Stabsintendant and Oberstabsintendant respectively.

Glenn

ww2mcm
Member
Posts: 38
(2/27/02 10:56:56 pm)
Reply Re: IVa
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Hi,
Also saw a O4 position?
Mike

Michael Dorosh
Member

Posts: 94
(2/28/02 2:15:23 am)
Reply Re: IVa
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Glenn - all I know about the TSD is what Thomas says in the new Men at Arms series; (my page on Beamten is at members.shaw.ca/deutsches...eamten.htm )

He says the creation of this Special Troop Service was due to an increased "militarization" of certain beamten career fields - the ones most closely associated with frontline divisions ie courts-martial, paymaster, etc. But he doesn't say what the practical effects were - did the Beamten of the TSD have more authority over service personnel? Or was it that they were under tighter control by their Army masters and subject to more severe discipline? What was the true purpose of the creation of the TSD and the reorganization of these career fields? I notice that some rank titles were also changed - was this part of an increased "militarization" of the Beamte?

glenn2438
New Member
Posts: 4
(2/28/02 7:17:46 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
TSD
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Michael,

the officials present a very interesting scenario. It actually seems strange why in the 20th century that these people were not commissioned officers in the first place. Certainly a paymaster, quartermaster or a judge advocate in the US or British armies held full commissioned rank. The officials had the dual "perk" if you like of being both members of the civil service and of the armed forces. Apparently there were moves afoot from 1940 onwards to rectify this anomaly and transfer many of the officials into soldier status. Some of the officials themselves are said to have obstructed this plan. I certainly don't see the move to make these officials into bonafide commissioned officers as anything sinister, merely the regularising of a fairly unsatisafactory situation. When one considers that the officials were actually deemed combatants it seems strange to think of them as civil servants!

Here is a quote from John R Angolia's "Uniforms and Traditions of the German Army 1933-1945" Volume One:

The Special Service (Truppensonderdienst -TSD) was constituted as a separate special career for officers by an order (HM 44 No. 109) dated 24 January 1944. Army officials of certain branches (and sporadically also officers) were transferred to the TSD. These officials were accorded the status of soldiers (officer). An order of the same date (HM 44, No. 110 and 111) constituted two branches within the TSD. A third technical branch was planned but never introduced. Officials on active status were transferred as active officers and officials of the reserve body or "at disposal" as reserve officers. The wear of the new branch colour and branch symbols was prescribed at the latest on 1 August 1944 by an order (HV 44B No. 216 dated 4 June 1944. The alteration of the uniform of the general officers of the special careers was also valid for generals of the TSD.

New grade designations were introduced for both branches replacing the usual officers' grade designation. This was subsequently regarded as a very unsatisfactory decision.

Administration branch of the Special Service : details of the new administarative branch (Laufbahn des Verwaltungsdienstes) were determined by an order (HM 44, No. 233) dated 22 April 1944. All officials of the high grade career (höherer Dienst) and of the elevated career (gehobener Dienst) of the intendants' branch of officials (intendanturdienst) and of the non-technical administrative (paymaster) branch of officials (nichttechnischer Verwaltungs-(Zahlmesister-) Dienst were transferred to the new branch of the TSD on officer status effective 1 May 1944".

The branch colour was light blue and the branch symbol was a gold coloured Mercurian staff (silver) for generals.

New Titles Line Officer Equivalent

Zahlmeister Leutnant
Oberzahlmeister Oberleutnant
Stabsintendant Hauptmann
Oberstabsintendant Major
Oberfeldintendant Oberstleutnant
Oberstintendant Oberst
Generalintendant Generalmajor
Generalstabsintendant Generalleutnant
Generaloberstabsintendant General der Infanterie

Similar titles for the Judicial branch from captain upwards but using the suffix "Richter" instead of "Intendant".

Branch colour wine red and branch symbol an upright yellow antique sword (white metal for generals).

With reagrds to an earlier discussion about whether the Ic would be a general staff officer. I have just looked through my copy of "Das Deutsche Heer 1939" and not one division has more than two fully fledged members of the general staff on the divisional staff, presumably the Ia and Ib. I should not think that this situation would have improved in wartime and that therefore the Ic would not be a fully qualified member of the general staff.


Glenn



Marcus Wendel
Webmaster

Posts: 1574
(2/28/02 7:23:50 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Staff Officer Questions.....
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This thread has provided some very interesting info, thanks!

/Marcus

ww2mcm
Member
Posts: 40
(2/28/02 8:15:08 pm)
Reply Re: Staff Officer Questions.....
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Great information Glenn, Thanks for it!Mike

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