SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 03 Dec 2006 04:34

I'm chilling :D

On a serious side, I think this proves that out there in the big world there is an awful lot of mixed but published 'fact'. I can answer one question about 5 different ways depending which book I happen to open up at the time. I don't have SS reenacting or collecting interests either but I do appear to have collected some rare works about the subject and felt that I should share these things with others. And within my experience as forum poster and moderator on other sites nine out of ten things we write on here will be ignored anyway, but the rest of the readership will be inspired to go away and do some research of their own to either prove or disprove what everyone else is arguing about! I hope they do as I like to see as many different viewpoints as possible, with someone else perhaps discovering a completely new and unknown thing that would be of great interest to us all. This is why debate in the forums is so important.
As an archaeologist I have been taught to confirm a theory using more than two or preferably more sources, which I did. Vikki is using just the one which is why I responded the way I did.

I will stop posting on this thread to calm things down and also in the hope that someone else out there who has a serious and sole interest in the SS will have some information far more interesting than I could ever supply to share with the OP who really needs some serious information to help her in her hobby. I have got a copy of an SS-Helferin recruiting handout but I wont post it now.

And to answer the original question of the OP, all I can find in the short period of time are quotes from Himmler speeches on what the ideal SS woman should be, her bearing, her manners and of course her dress sense both in and out of uniform. He had discussed with fellow officers how ugly and mannish women looked in the 1920's when wearing ties - I cannot find direct references but it may (please note I say may, not is) be Himmler himself who insisted that women should not wear ties. Post your question in the SS section of this forum and you may get an answer from members who dont venture into the ladies section :D

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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 28 Dec 2007 00:26

Hello everybody,

this thread may be a bit aged already but just recently I've found two interesting pics related to the subject (i.e. SS auxiliaries' ties or the lack thereof).

Source 1: http://www.ebay.de auction 200185032580
Source 2: http://news.webshots.com/photo/13710599 ... 0923BNNoKn (The skullhead on the cap is another oddity.)

From these photos it appears that Himmler was not the ulitmate fashion guru to each and every woman employed by the SS. When it came to such vital things like fancy dressing some of them seem to have had their very own set of mind. (Just aberrations from the regulations of course but interesting nonetheless.)

The SS Kriegshelferin below seems to wearing one of the short ties that were typical for the first generation of Luftwaffe auxiliaries.

Best regards
Torsten
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Siegfried Wilhelm
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Post by Siegfried Wilhelm » 28 Dec 2007 02:10

A very nice photo! Thanks for posting it...but it's not of an SS Helferin. The sleeve eagle is not SS nor is the cap, nor the eagle on the cap.
There are several branches that wore sleeve eagles, a couple that come to mind are the TENO, NSKK, and the Eastern Territories Officials. At first glance this woman looks to be of the former, but without seeing the color of the uniform it is hard to tell.
But a really nice photo none the less!

SW~

PS--That other photo (with the death's head) looks to be a heavily dubbed photo. The runes are in the wrong place, wrong size, she is wearing what really appears to be either a Heer or Kriegsmarine Helferin tunic (double breasted with pocket flaps), and the cap eagle is army or navy looking. I'd say it is a KM Helferin photo tricked out to be SS for the unwary.
Not a nice photo.

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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 28 Dec 2007 03:29

Dear Siegfried Wilhelm,

thank you for pointing out various flaws regarding the identification of the depicted woman as an SS auxiiliary. I'll try to find out for what organization she really worked for.
Obviously it's a bit more complex than I expected.

Best regards
Torsten

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Siegfried Wilhelm
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Post by Siegfried Wilhelm » 28 Dec 2007 22:19

Torsten,
Believe me, I know what you mean. WWII German stuff is sooo varied and complicated I don't know how anyone can keep up with it. I know a few things, but I am not anywhere in the league of people like Fraulein Valkyrie (Vikki) when it comes to women's stuff. Better see what she says.

SW~

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 29 Dec 2007 07:28

Actually, Siegfried, I'd always thought that you and Torsten beat me on identifying the insignia! 8O

At first glance, the dark cap and background of the eagle make me think "Marinehelferin." But why a sleeve eagle?

Although they did wear a sleeve eagle rather than a breast eagle, you can rule out Eastern Territories--the size and shape of the eagle aren't right. Below, an Eastern Territories Helferin, and an Eastern Territories adler for comparison. (By the way, this photo was also misidentified by the seller as being of an SS-Helferin. I was very happy to get it, as I think pictures of Eastern Territories Helferinnen must be even scarcer.)

Best,
~Vikki
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Matt Gibbs
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Post by Matt Gibbs » 31 Dec 2007 11:08

Nice pic, they are indeed rare :) Of course, misidentified stuff on eBay does make me chuckle quite a bit from time to time hehe.
ttfn

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Heimatschuss
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 05 Sep 2008 22:46

Well,

after the failure with the SS Helferinnen tie at least something new in the field of Eastern Territories Helfs. Thanks to Vikki somewhat training our eyes for such things I realized that those 'Two BDM Girls In The Snow' on Ebay were actually something a bit more precious.

The photo below was taken in February 1944 in Krynica, a ski resort in the Beskids range of the Caparthian Mountains, Southern Poland.

The woman to the right is wearing on her sleeve the eagle insignium of the Reichsministerium für die besetzten Ostgebiete (Rosenberg ministry). But in many other aspects her jacket differs from the standard jacket worn by the woman to the left (and the one posted by Vikki). It's lacking the chocolate brown collar as well as the collar's white piping. The lapels are completely different. The breast pocket is also gone.

So either different uniform jackets for Eastern Territories Helfs existed or there was some latitude in what they could wear as long as it did bear the correct eagle.

Best regards
Torsten
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Vikki
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Vikki » 06 Sep 2008 05:26

Great photo, Torsten! Congratulations!!!

Since posting my photo of the Eastern Territories Helferin above, I’ve gotten a copy of John Angolia’s In the Service of the Reich: Diplomatic and Government Officials/German Red Cross. I pulled it out tonight after seeing your photo, and he has some information from the uniform regulations that might explain the difference between the uniforms in your photo and mine.

Here’s Angolia’s quote (p. 196) from an article, Final Uniform of Eastern Officials, in a August 1942 issue of the uniform trade journal Uniformen-Markt about female uniforms of the Reichsministerium für die besetzen Ostgebiete (Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories):
Uniform for Female Personnel
“Uniform as pictures published in the ‘Wiener Illustr. Zeitung’ was not introduced. Introduced were a two-piece suit with a long jacket with dark-brown collar. The breast national emblem (as worn by male personnel) is worn on the left upper sleeve. Double-breasted brown raincoat.”
And here’s Angolia’s information regarding the female uniforms of the Einsatzstab Reichsminister Rosenberg (pp. 206-7, see photo below):
The female uniform consisted of, but not limited to, the following:

Tunic
Brown single-breasted with two or three button closure (buttoned right over left in female fashion) , and with broad lapels. The hip pockets had unbuttoned flaps with straight edges. The collar was piped or not depending on rank. Wear of awards was permitted. The “Einsatzstab RR” cuffband was worn on the lower left sleeve.

Blouse
White blouse with fall-down collar.

Tie
Short black necktie of the female variety. It is possible there was an adornment to the tie that reflected the wearer’s rank.

Skirt

Angolia says that only a single page of regulations for this group exists, dealing with male insignia, and mostly with male rank insignia, and that most of his information on the uniforms is extrapolated from the few extant period photos. (That’s probably why he begins his information on both male and female uniforms with the caveat “consisted of, but not limited to, the following”.) And I think that dearth of photos or information--and the uniform-colored rather than dark brown collars--makes it plausible that your photo is of Helferinnen of the ERR. Could the absence of Einsatzstab RR cufftitles on their uniforms be due to a regulation similar to that for SS-Helferinnen, who could only wear the Reichsschule-SS cufftitle (and other insignia) after they’d been trained and tested at Oberenheim?

On a side note of my own personal interest, Angolia indicates that the exact purpose of the ERR wasn’t known, but that it apparently wielded a degree of power in the eastern Occupied Territories. From my own reading, I know of one very interesting activity in which the detachment was very heavily involved: the looting of art treasures from the Occupied Territories.

Either way, congrats again, Torsten, on a very rare and fascinating photo!

Best,
~Vikki
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Heimatschuss
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 07 Sep 2008 10:06

Vikki,

the idea that these are actual members of the Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR) is fascinating but I think that's a little bit overoptimistic.

ERR was essentially a party affair, subordinated to Rosenberg's Foreign Policy Office (Aussenpolitisches Amt) of the NSDAP. So what I would expect to see on the sleeves of their employees is a standard party eagle. Contrary to that Reichsministerium für die besetzten Ostgebiete (RMfdbOst) was a part of the regular state administration and had its own special emblem as depicted in Eastern Territories Helferin 01.

The ERR indeed seems to have utilized the usual NSDAP eagle. Picture ERR Helferin 01.jpg has in its centre a tunic draped over a chair and the insignium on the sleeve (though blurred) has much more resemblance to the usual party eagle than to the bigger RMfdbOst eagle.

But despite that you could really be right that there is a connection between the women in Eastern Territories Helferin 01.jpg and the ERR. When comparing the cut and style of the ERR female uniforms (ERR Helferin 02.jpg) with those of the auxiliary to the right there is a striking resemblance. Perhaps this woman changed over from ERR to RMfdbOst and took her uniform with her? The basic colour would have been the same and good cloth (plus decend mending) were hard to get in 1944. So she may just have replaced the old insignium with that of her new employer and have left anything else as it was.

Sources:
ERR Helferin 01.jpg : http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de, Signatur: Bild 146-1977-029-13
ERR Helferin 02.jpg : http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de, Signatur: Bild 146-1977-030-23

Best regards
Torsten
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by FRANCY RITTER » 08 Aug 2009 07:52

Hello to all :)
Is a SS nurse ? (To note ss eagle)

From ebay click on gif

Image
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 08 Aug 2009 08:34

Great find Francy!

She seems to be one of the Norwegian SS nurses. Note the barely visible nationality patch below the SS eagle in the lower right corner. More pics of the Norse front sisters are available via this link http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=145292

Best regards
Torsten

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Minky » 24 Sep 2009 00:38

:| Now Im a little worried. The group I belong to who do re enact SS Helferinen, wear ties! This is my first year with them and they are quite firm with getting the detail right.

There are 2 types of SS Helferinen, I shall re post the information from our FRAU Forum.

The main three girls, my self included, have researched German hairstyles, clothing and makeup so we do get it right when we re enact DRK, SS Helferinen etc. The others, well either they are unaware or cant be bothered to get the details right. :|

Warm regards Karin
Last edited by Minky on 24 Sep 2009 01:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Minky » 24 Sep 2009 00:45

SS Helferinnen, two types of auxillary with very differing roles Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:06 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I felt it necessary to post a brief blurb about the titled helferinnen, in part as our group does have ladies that adorn the SS Helferinnen uniform, more so however to explain to those not in the know, that helferinnen of the SS fell into two differing catagories. This post is not meant as a glorification, the history and knowledge of the past is out there and well known. Therefore this post serves only to identify that there were two types of auxiliaries assigned to the SS forces, and note the differences in duties and uniforms of these women.

The services/roles these women undertook are so diverse that one almost without presidence overshadows the other due to their active part in the war.

The women's auxiliary service of the SS was divided into two categories, these being:
SS Auxiliaries (SS-Helferinnen) which included those female personnel trained at the SS school located at Oberenheim/Alsace primarily in signals duties (Reichsschule für SS-Helferinnen Oberenheim.)
and
SS War Auxiliaries (SS-Kriegshelferinnen):
All other auxiliary female personnel employed by the SS permanently or temporarily.

The SS auxiliary was made up of females normally between 17 and 30 years of age. They were employed as telephonists, teleprinter operators, and radio operators. Selected female personnel were promoted to NCO or officer ranks after successfully passing special training courses. Reichsführer-SS Himmler authorized distribution of the following letter on 14 August 1943 on the subject of SS Female Auxiliaries:

The designation SS-HELFERINNEN remains confined to female personnel who have been trained in the Reichsschule-SS at Oberenheim/Alsace, tested, and incorporated into the Corps of SS-Helferinnen. All other female employees and workers who are in the service of the SS under contract or by virtue of an Emergency Service Order will be known as Kriegshelferinnen, insofar as they are entitled to be issued with service clothing (uniform) during their employment in accordance with the Führer's Order of 11 January 1943.

It follows therefore that the Kriegshelferinnen were given other duties away from the above mentioned for SS Helferinnen. History and many websites can tell the real and often disturbing stories of those women employed as Kriegshelferinnen, but the generally well known work of many of these women was in the KZ or concentration camps. The administration of the Kriegshelferinnen was the responsibility of the unit employing them, thus these women fell under the responsibility of the male unit in command of the relevant KZ.

Uniform worn

The approved service clothing for SS-Helferinnen would also be worn by Kriegshelferinnen (although a varient of this is known to be in private collections that does differ in cut and fabric to that of the former). The only elements of insignia akin to both SS-Helferinnen anhttp://frau.forumieren.com/index.htmd Kriegshelferinnen were the adler on the headdress (if worn) and the adler on left upper arm (though not always worn on the latter uniform). The SS runes insignia worn on the left breast and Cuff titles with the inscription "Reichsschule-SS," or "SS-Helferin" along with unit emblems (such as the signals blitz) were reserved for SS-Helferinnen only.

To anyone that may see FRAU at any event in the UK, it is to be known that we only portray the SS-Helferinnen and NOT the Kriegshelferinnen.


This is from our FRAU Forum.Here is the link http://frau.forumieren.com/index.htm
Warm regards Karin

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Vikki » 24 Sep 2009 04:54

Hello Karin, and welcome to the Forum!

The best way to be sure of your research on a subject is to rely on original documentation and photos. For first-hand examples of SS-Helferinnen uniforms, take a look at the original pictures of SS-Helferinnen scattered through this thread:

Female Auxiliary Photographs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 00&start=0

For example:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 32#p970932
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1040531
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1258778



For further information on the SS Auxiliaries, and the difference between SS-Helferinnen and SS-Kriegshelferinnen, take a look at these threads, among others:

Women in the Waffen-SS?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=44635

SS-Helferinnen in Auschwitz
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=127688

SS-Wardresses
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=42637

SS Aufseherin
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=130339


Best regards,
~Vikki

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