SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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FRAU
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by FRAU » 26 Sep 2009 14:40

Hi Karin, whilst some of the women of FRAU wear a tie not all do ;) its a misconception and one I've been working on for awhile. FRAU has nearly completed its first full year of a female only re-enactment group and we're not daft there are things that need changing and the tie issue came up at last years agm, however it is still lingering and still needs addressing for authenticity. The decision before FRAU became from the subtext of the tie, started from the pre FRAU women wearing a tie when in shirt order, whilst this is incorrect they still do this.

It is in this country a re-enactorism and FRAU members are not the only guilty parties, but it needs addressing as of course sadly it makes us look like farbs. Whilst I may agree from a modern perception the wearing of a tie does indeed make a uniform look smarter, it has no place in re-enactment. I shall be adding it again to this years minutes for our AGM in three weeks ;)

Note I wear mine with no tie tunic on or off (as I did at the victory show), but then I'm a cantankerous bugger of which if you've sussed me out you'll know who I am Karin ;) though this isn't my username persay on this forum nor is my other moniker, I thought I'd use this one as of course your comments affect the group ;)

Thanks for the post Vikki, as said its a re-enactorism in the UK and sadly one thats prooving hard to cease :lol: however the group has progressed women to the fore in the UK and we need now to focus not only on what we do, but indeed how we do it.
Kind regards,
the Ladies of
F.R.A.U.

Minky
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Minky » 28 Sep 2009 20:55

Hi Vikki, and Frau :wink: !

Thanks for the welcome and the links to help with the search of the correct dress order! Tie or no Tie! :?

From what I have seen in photo's :? here and other forums it is looking more like there was no tie and a ladies short tie-et was worn or a broach depending if it was part of the specific uniform requirements.

I shall leave my tie off and source either a correct tie-et, if its is appropriate for the radio op correct dress code!

I guess more research is needed!

Thanks Karin

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Vikki » 29 Sep 2009 01:44

Minky wrote:From what I have seen in photo's :? here and other forums it is looking more like there was no tie and a ladies short tie-et was worn or a broach depending if it was part of the specific uniform requirements.


Hello Karin,

I, for one, would be most interested if you'd post those photos of SS-Helferinnen wearing "tie-ets" or brooches as part of the standard authorized uniform.

Early Luftwaffe Helferinnen wore the short "tie-ets" you speak of. Heer (Army) Helferinnen and Kriegsmarine Helferinnen wore ties as part of their regulation uniforms. Heer (Army) Helferinnen, Kriegsmarine Helferinnen, and RADwJ women wore brooches as part of their authorized uniforms. SS-Helferinnen did not wear any of these as part of their regulation uniform.

Perhaps you’re confusing some of those women with SS-Helferinnen? They are different branches of service, and therefore they're subject to different uniform regulations. So if the photos you're citing are of uniformed auxiliaries from one or more of those other branches of service, the information shouldn't be transferred to SS-Helferinnen.


I guess more research is needed!
Errrr......I guess so.


Best regards,
~Vikki

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 29 Sep 2009 22:32

Hello all,

sorry for arriving late in this thread but as it seems the question has more or less been solved already. Please anyone read the recommended threads carefully because even they contain a few initial misidentifcations (i.e. female auxiliaries that are not SS). Here are some more photos of SS-Nachrichtenhelferinnen documenting the absence of any tie. All three photos from Seidler (1998).

References:
F.W. Seidler
Frauen zu den Waffen?
2nd ed., Bernard & Graefe Verlag; Bonn; 1998
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 29 Sep 2009 23:35

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Minky
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Minky » 30 Sep 2009 21:58

Hi,

As I explained earlier I am constantly re searching the uniforms that we wear to be sure it is correct is every detail this was the main reason why I joined this forum as I want the information to be correct.
Im not inclined to follow the heresay of other girls/women who wear the same uniforms too short or too tight as they assume its more flattering to their figure and dont care that its totally wrong. Where as I do care.

The picture that made me post here was the same one on webshots that Heimatschuss posted a link to.

The broach I was reffering to was the SS Helferinen award broach of 1943 that I saw in the Osprey book by G Williamson also mentioned on this post. I found this accidentally as I have been trying to research a silver broach I was given by my Oma's neighbour along with her mothers cross and numerous other pieces of jewelry and photos.
I have a odd collection of items from Adelwiess in a glass and sliver pendant given to my Oma by a HJ friend who was sweet on her as she was only 17 to a WW1 sweetheart pendant from my Great Oma given to her by my Great Opa when he proposed to her.

As I said I need to keep researching, thank you all for your help, keep helping.

The tie gathers dust :D
Karin

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Vikki » 01 Oct 2009 05:38

Minky wrote:As I said I need to keep researching, thank you all for your help, keep helping.
Great, Karin! Original source material and pictures are always the best foundation, and backup, you can have.

The tie gathers dust :D
:wink:

Best regards,
~Vikki

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 07 Oct 2009 13:36

Hello,

just a note to myself. According to the homepage of Prof. Bernd Wegner http://www.hsu-hh.de/hiswes/index_lkl2RxfSc7AeUGss.html there's a new Ph.D. thesis on the female SS auxiliaries on the way. If I understand the page correctly author Jutta Mühlenberg has already passed the oral exam of her doctorate so the thesis should appear soon. The final title of the publication may vary slightly from the working title as in other cases.
Keep on looking.

Best regards
Torsten

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 28 Oct 2009 16:32

Hello,

cleaning my harddrive I found some notes I had once taken on the uniforms of female SS auxiliaries (SS-Helferinnen). I found mention of four different types of uniform for female SS auxiliaries:

Type 1
The first field grey uniform selected in November 1942 (Seidler, 1998, p.177). A good description of this uniform is given by Williamson (2003, pp.40). The most distinctive feature of this type is the silver collar piping that all uniform jackets had without regard to rank.

Type 2
On Nov. 1st, 1943 the second pattern of the field grey uniform was introduced (Seidler, 1998, p.176). It didn't differ much from the first one. The main change was that the silver piping of the jacket collars was now reserved for the Führerinnen ranks (Seidler, 1998, p.177). Obviously the SS tried to get in line with the other branches of the armed forces and the general uniform code for officers.

Type 3
On Jan. 1st, 1945 the female auxiliaries of the Ordnungspolizei became subordinated to the SS-Hauptamt that already administered the SS-Helferinnen. Those police women that had received training at the police school in Erfurt were allowed to volunteer for SS service being rated as SS-Helferinnen too. All in all this transfer affected approx. 3000 women. Secondary sources available to me (Schwarz, 1997; Seidler, 1998) disagree if these women really volunteered or were simply pushed without much choice. A contingent of about 500 of them (perhaps those that didn't volunteer or were not Erfurt graduates or just had the wrong pedigree) were to be posted back to the police to work there. The other 2500 were to work in the SS.
Because SS tunics were in short supply the former female police auxiliaries kept their police uniforms but received SS sleeve eagles, the SS breast patch and SS rank insignia (silver collar piping?) (Schwarz, 1997, p.238; Seidler, 1998, p.180). Female police auxiliaries did wear ties to their uniforms. What consequences their transfer to the SS had for the ties remains unclear.

Type 4
According to Schwarz (1997, pp.237) SS-Führerinnen became entitled to wear black uniforms in 1945. Cloth for these uniforms they had to provide themselves. Unfortunately Schwarz fails not provide any source for this story but I've already seen Schwarz's remark repeated in other texts on the female SS to the extent that SS-Führerinnen DID wear black uniforms. Will be interesting to see how this thing evolves in future :wink:

References:

Gudrun Schwarz
Frauen in der SS: Sippenverband und Frauenkorps.
in:
Kirsten Heinsohn; Barbara Vogel; Ulrike Weckel (Eds.)
Zwischen Karriere und Verfolgung. Handlungsräume von Frauen im nationalsozialistischen Deutschland.
Campus Verlag; Frankfurt, New York; 1997; pp.223-244

Franz W. Seidler
Frauen zu den Waffen?
2nd ed., Bernard & Graefe Verlag; Bonn; 1998

Gordon Williamson
World War II German Women's Auxiliary Services.
Men-at-Arms Series No.393; Osprey Publishing; Botley; 2003

Best regards
Torsten

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 28 Oct 2009 22:25

Hello,

when rechecking some facts in Seidler's book I found another uniforms oddity. According to Seidler (1998, p.176) all females of the Oberehnheim training centre including the trainees were to be equipped with the full set of uniform items as shown in the list once posted by ancasta at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 12&start=5

On the other hand Seidler (1998, p.185) also writes that only those SS-Helferinnen to be posted abroad or to a concentration camp staff inside Germany did receive the full complement of uniform items. Those SS auxiliaries that worked in ordinary SS installations inside the Reich were just to be issued two worksmocks like the Stabshelferinnen of the Heer, i.e. just protective clothing but no uniforms.

If I go by the footnotes both informations seem to originate from the same SS document.

Here's a photo of the SS worksmocks
SS-Helferinnen 9.jpg
Source: http://www.sz-photo.de/suddeutsche-zeit ... rvice-neu/

Let's hope that the thesis of Frau Mühlenberg will shed some new light on this.


Best regards
Torsten
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 20 Feb 2010 00:10

Hello,

another two worksmock photos from http://www.cegesoma.be that seem to have been taken during the horticulture and cooking lessons at the Oberehnheim training centre.
SS-Helferinnen 10 (Cegesoma Image No. 203896).jpg
SS-Helferinnen 11 (Cegesoma Image No. 203895).jpg
Best regards
Torsten
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Einmalfrager » 06 May 2010 19:43

Hi everybody!

Does anyone else see an SS-scarf in that picture? Has anyone seen something like that before?

Thanks for your help
Bjorn
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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Heimatschuss » 15 May 2010 14:19

Hello Björn,
Einmalfrager wrote:Hi everybody!

Does anyone else see an SS-scarf in that picture? Has anyone seen something like that before?

Thanks for your help
Bjorn
it looks like Blitz runes indeed but I've never heard of such an item. It would be helpful it we could have a look at the complete stamp to see if it's at least a period Third Reich photo. (I don't think anyone would have submitted a photo with a scarf like that after 1945 for an official document :wink: )
Could be an optical trick with yarn of various colours looking like a Blitz rune in a b/w photo. Also in the first time of Hitler's rule manufacturers flooded the market with all kinds of (kitsch) stuff bearing Nazi insignia to jump the band waggon and make a fast buck. Due to that the NSDAP and its subdivisions developed special departments to prevent the illict use of party symbols.

Best regards
Torsten

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Vikki » 15 May 2010 15:39

Heimatschuss wrote:Could be an optical trick with yarn of various colours looking like a Blitz rune in a b/w photo.
I'd thought the same thing, especially since the material is bunched up to lay round her neck and we're not seeing the full pattern of the print or weave.

~Vikki

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Re: SS-Helferinnen Uniform, Why No Tie?

Post by Einmalfrager » 15 May 2010 22:03

It would be helpful it we could have a look at the complete stamp to see if it's at least a period Third Reich photo. (I don't think anyone would have submitted a photo with a scarf like that after 1945 for an official document :wink: )
Thanks for your consideration, Torsten.
Well, the photo is on an official document from 1953 (a shooting licence issued in a small town) :-). But it should be taken at least 10 years, rather around 15 years earlier because on pictures from 1954 she looks much older (she was born in 1878).
She was awarded the Goldenes Parteiabzeichen of the NSDAP and was a lifelong admirer of Hitler.
But it can of course be an optical trick.

Best regards
Bjorn

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